• Y'all or Ya'll?
• 1) Y'all
  34
• 2) Ya'll
  2
•  
  You cannot vote on this poll.

Re: Y'all or Ya'll?ã By: Hayden Walker to on Sat Apr 22 2023 11:01 pmãã HW> 1: Y'all [2 66.67%] ûã HW> 2: Ya'll [1 33.33%] ûããThe apostrophe is between the words "you" and "all". #1 is the only correct answer.. Where/why would "ya'll" be correct?ããNightfoxãã---ã þ Synchronet þ Digital Distortion: digitaldistortionbbs.comã

Re: Y'all or Ya'll?ã By: Nightfox to Hayden Walker on Sun Apr 23 2023 03:37 pmããYes, thats true. But if your a redneck like myself, it's pronounced like #2ãHow Ya'll doin? for example. I have a bachelor's degree in english and I still speak wrong. That's what growing on a up farm does to some of us :)ãã---ã þ Synchronet þ trapper - trapdoor.synchro.netã

On 24 Apr 2023, Trapper said the following...ã ã Tr> Yes, thats true. But if your a redneck like myself, it's pronounced likeã Tr> #2 How Ya'll doin? for example. I have a bachelor's degree in englishããUmm.. what? That's not how contractions work. The apostrophe isn't a pronunciation guide. It's spelled y'all and pronounced like you're used to saying it.ããThere's a reason we have a separate system for pronunciation guidance.ãã... Origin of Life? Just check my refrigerator...ãã--- Mystic BBS v1.12 A47 2021/12/25 (Windows/32)ã * Origin: cold fusion - cfbbs.net - grand rapids, miã

Re: Y'all or Ya'll?ã By: Trapper to Nightfox on Mon Apr 24 2023 08:30 amãã Tr> Yes, thats true. But if your a redneck like myself, it's pronounced likeã Tr> #2 How Ya'll doin? for example. I have a bachelor's degree in english andã Tr> I still speak wrong. That's what growing on a up farm does to some of usããI don't know how "y'all" and "ya'll" would be pronounced differently..?ããNightfoxãã---ã þ Synchronet þ Digital Distortion: digitaldistortionbbs.comã

Nightfox wrote to Trapper <=-ãã Tr> Yes, thats true. But if your a redneck like myself, it's pronounced likeã Tr> #2 How Ya'll doin? for example. I have a bachelor's degree in english andã Tr> I still speak wrong. That's what growing on a up farm does to some of usãã Ni> I don't know how "y'all" and "ya'll" would be pronouncedã Ni> differently..?ããThe first is basically one syllable, and the second is (sort of) two. ã;-)ãããã... YORGAMAK HAS ARRIVED AND WILL INITIATE DESTRUCTIMATION.ã--- MultiMail/Linux v0.52ã þ Synchronet þ Palantir BBS * palantirbbs.ddns.net * Pensacola, FLã

Re: Re: Y'all or Ya'll?ã By: fusion to Trapper on Mon Apr 24 2023 04:07 pmããI agree with you on the rules and usage. There is no argument on that, but a lot of people do not use it that way, including byself. Yeah, it's a bad habbit and I should try to change it.ãã---ã þ Synchronet þ trapper - trapdoor.synchro.netã

Re: Re: Y'all or Ya'll?ã By: Gamgee to Nightfox on Mon Apr 24 2023 06:59 pmãã > -=> Nightfox wrote to Trapper <=-ã > ã > Tr> Yes, thats true. But if your a redneck like myself, it's pronounced likã > Tr> #2 How Ya'll doin? for example. I have a bachelor's degree in english aã > Tr> I still speak wrong. That's what growing on a up farm does to some of uã > ã > Ni> I don't know how "y'all" and "ya'll" would be pronouncedã > Ni> differently..?ã > ã > The first is basically one syllable, and the second is (sort of) two.ã > ;-)ã > ã > ã > ã > ... YORGAMAK HAS ARRIVED AND WILL INITIATE DESTRUCTIMATION.ããY'all is well accepted. "Your people" is taken in a derogatory manner.ãã---ã þ Synchronet þ The Cave BBS - Since 1992 - cavebbs.homeip.netã

Re: Re: Y'all or Ya'll?ã By: Moondog to Gamgee on Tue Apr 25 2023 11:14 amãã > Ni>> I don't know how "y'all" and "ya'll" would be pronouncedã > Ni>> differently..?ãã> The first is basically one syllable, and the second is (sort of)ã> two. ;-)ãã Mo> Y'all is well accepted. "Your people" is taken in a derogatory manner.ããI'm not sure how that relates to the past posts in this thread.. And I've never heard anyone say "your people" in place of "y'all". And I don't think "y'all" is really synonymous with "your people".. Most often, I hear it in the context of something like "Dinner's ready, y'all", where "your people" wouldn't really work in that kind of sentence.ããNightfoxãã---ã þ Synchronet þ Digital Distortion: digitaldistortionbbs.comã

I don't know how "y'all" and "ya'll" would be pronouncedã> Ni> differently..?ãã> The first is basically one syllable, and the second is (sort of) two.ã> ;-)ãã +1ããã * SLMR 2.1a * "Television! Teacher, Mother, Secret Lover..." - Homerãã---ã þ Synchronet þ CAPCITY2 * capcity2.synchro.net * Telnet/SSH:2022/Rlogin/HTTPã

Re: Y'all or Ya'll?ã By: Trapper to Nightfox on Mon Apr 24 2023 08:30 amãã > Yes, thats true. But if your a redneck like myself, it's pronounced like #2ã > How Ya'll doin? for example. I have a bachelor's degree in english and I still speak wrong. That's what growing on aã > up farm does to some of us :)ãã(cordially)ãSee, on the one hand, I definitely get that. My neck of the South has it rhyme with hall/call/ball, but Iãknow that's far from the only way.ããOn the other hand, I've had Midwesterners tell me y'all is wrong, and that I should spell it ya'll, and thatãbasically guaranteed I'd never do that.ãã---ã þ Synchronet þ Palantir BBS * palantirbbs.ddns.net * Pensacola, FLã

Re: Re: Y'all or Ya'll?ã By: Nightfox to Moondog on Tue Apr 25 2023 01:29 pmãã Ni> think "y'all" is really synonymous with "your people".. Most often, I hearã Ni> it in the context of something like "Dinner's ready, y'all", where "yourã Ni> people" wouldn't really work in that kind of sentence.ããThat person or group of two or more over there = Y'all.ããThe larger group, or people in general - all Y'all.ããSometimes heard to reference one person, may be archaic - Y'un or Y'uns.ã---ã þ Synchronet þ .: realitycheckbbs.org :: scientia potentia est :.ã

Nightfox wrote to Moondog <=-ãã Ni> Re: Re: Y'all or Ya'll?ã Ni> By: Moondog to Gamgee on Tue Apr 25 2023 11:14 amãã > Ni>> I don't know how "y'all" and "ya'll" would be pronouncedã > Ni>> differently..?ãã > The first is basically one syllable, and the second is (sort of)ã > two. ;-)ãã Mo> Y'all is well accepted. "Your people" is taken in a derogatory manner.ãã Ni> I'm not sure how that relates to the past posts in this thread..ããIt doesn't. I asked him the same thing. Kinda strange how things jump ãall over the map.ãã Ni> And I've never heard anyone say "your people" in place ofã Ni> "y'all".ããNeither have I.ãã Ni> And I don't think "y'all" is really synonymous withã Ni> "your people".. Most often, I hear it in the context ofã Ni> something like "Dinner's ready, y'all", where "your people"ã Ni> wouldn't really work in that kind of sentence.ãã100%.ãããã... I'm as confused as a baby in a topless bar.ã--- MultiMail/Linux v0.52ã þ Synchronet þ Palantir BBS * palantirbbs.ddns.net * Pensacola, FLã

Moondog wrote to Gamgee <=-ãã Mo> Re: Re: Y'all or Ya'll?ã Mo> By: Gamgee to Nightfox on Mon Apr 24 2023 06:59 pmãã > Ni> I don't know how "y'all" and "ya'll" would be pronouncedã > Ni> differently..?ãã > The first is basically one syllable, and the second is (sort of) two.ã > ;-)ãã Mo> Y'all is well accepted.ããHuh? We were talking about how it was pronounced, not whether it was ã"accepted" or not.ãã Mo> "Your people" is taken in a derogatory manner.ããHuh? What does that mean? Where did that come from? How does that fit ãinto the conversation that is going on?ããPlease try to focus a little.ããã... I'm as confused as a baby in a topless bar.ã--- MultiMail/Linux v0.52ã þ Synchronet þ Palantir BBS * palantirbbs.ddns.net * Pensacola, FLã

poindexter FORTRAN wrote to Nightfox <=-ãã pF> That person or group of two or more over there = Y'all.ãã pF> The larger group, or people in general - all Y'all.ãã pF> Sometimes heard to reference one person, may be archaic - Y'un orã pF> Y'uns.ããSpot on.ããNot really related, but funny - in the words of "My Cousin Vinny": ãYutes.ãããã... Gone crazy, be back later, please leave message.ã--- MultiMail/Linux v0.52ã þ Synchronet þ Palantir BBS * palantirbbs.ddns.net * Pensacola, FLã

Hello Margaerynne!ãã M> (cordially) See, on the one hand, I definitely get that. Myã M> neck of the South has it rhyme with hall/call/ball, but Iã M> know that's far from the only way.ãã M> On the other hand, I've had Midwesterners tell me y'all isã M> wrong, and that I should spell it ya'll, and that basicallyã M> guaranteed I'd never do that.ããFor what it's worth, the Canadian version of y'all is y'use or ãy'ooz, rhymes with ooze/booze/loose.ãããããããããã--- OpenXP 5.0.57ã * Origin: Ogg's Dovenet Point (723:320/1.9)ã þ Synchronet þ CAPCITY2 * capcity2.synchro.net * Telnet/SSH:2022/Rlogin/HTTPã

"Your people" is taken in a derogatory manner.ãã> Huh? What does that mean? Where did that come from? How does that fitã> into the conversation that is going on?ãã> Please try to focus a little.ããMaybe he meant "you people" which I have heard used on rare occassion.ããã * SLMR 2.1a * A nudist wedding makes the best man easy to identify.ãã---ã þ Synchronet þ CAPCITY2 * capcity2.synchro.net * Telnet/SSH:2022/Rlogin/HTTPã

Re: Re: Y'all or Ya'll?ã By: Nightfox to Moondog on Tue Apr 25 2023 01:29 pmãã > Re: Re: Y'all or Ya'll?ã > By: Moondog to Gamgee on Tue Apr 25 2023 11:14 amã > ã > > Ni>> I don't know how "y'all" and "ya'll" would be pronouncedã > > Ni>> differently..?ã > ã > > The first is basically one syllable, and the second is (sort of)ã > > two. ;-)ã > ã > Mo> Y'all is well accepted. "Your people" is taken in a derogatory manner.ã > ã > I'm not sure how that relates to the past posts in this thread.. And I've nã > ike "Dinner's ready, y'all", where "your people" wouldn't really work in thaã > ã > Nightfoxã > ãIt is along the lines of you all, you's guys, used in placing a person withinãa group.ãã---ã þ Synchronet þ The Cave BBS - Since 1992 - cavebbs.homeip.netã

Re: Re: Y'all or Ya'll?ã By: Dumas Walker to GAMGEE on Wed Apr 26 2023 03:54 pmãã > > Mo> "Your people" is taken in a derogatory manner.ã > ã > > Huh? What does that mean? Where did that come from? How does that fitã > > into the conversation that is going on?ã > ã > > Please try to focus a little.ã > ã > Maybe he meant "you people" which I have heard used on rare occassion.ã > ã > ã > * SLMR 2.1a * A nudist wedding makes the best man easy to identify.ã > ãBingo.ãã---ã þ Synchronet þ The Cave BBS - Since 1992 - cavebbs.homeip.netã

"Your people" is taken in a derogatory manner.ã> >ã> > > Huh? What does that mean? Where did that come from? How does that fitã> > > into the conversation that is going on?ã> >ã> > > Please try to focus a little.ã> >ã> > Maybe he meant "you people" which I have heard used on rare occassion.ã> >ã> Bingo.ããWhen you said it could be taken in a derogatory manner, I figured as much.ãIIRC, didn't Ross Perot run into some issues using that phrase during oneãof his Presidential runs?ããã * SLMR 2.1a * Tongue-tied & twisted, just an Earth-bound misfit, I!ãã---ã þ Synchronet þ CAPCITY2 * capcity2.synchro.net * Telnet/SSH:2022/Rlogin/HTTPã

Re: Re: Y'all or Ya'll?ã By: Gamgee to poindexter FORTRAN on Wed Apr 26 2023 07:57 amãã > > That person or group of two or more over there = Y'all.ã > Not really related, but funny - in the words of "My Cousin Vinny": ã > Yutes.ãã What? Did you say Yutes? What is a "Yute"?ã ã |07 HusTlerãã---ã þ Synchronet þ thePharcyde_ telnet://bbs.pharcyde.org (Wisconsin)ã

HusTler wrote to Gamgee <=-ãã Hu> Re: Re: Y'all or Ya'll?ã Hu> By: Gamgee to poindexter FORTRAN on Wed Apr 26 2023 07:57 amãã > > That person or group of two or more over there = Y'all.ãã > Not really related, but funny - in the words of "My Cousin Vinny":ã > Yutes.ãã Hu> What? Did you say Yutes? What is a "Yute"?ããOh, I'm sorry, your Honor. Yoooooooooootthhhs.ãããã... He does the work of 3 Men...Moe, Larry & Curlyã--- MultiMail/Linux v0.52ã þ Synchronet þ Palantir BBS * palantirbbs.ddns.net * Pensacola, FLã

Re: Re: Y'all or Ya'll?ã By: Gamgee to HusTler on Tue May 02 2023 07:38 amãã > > > That person or group of two or more over there = Y'all.ã >ã > > Not really related, but funny - in the words of "My Cousin Vinny":ã > > Yutes.ãã 10/10 scene, but also exactly how I feel saying "y'all" in the northwest.ãã "Do yooouuu alll have any coke?"ãã---ã þ Synchronet þ Palantir BBS * palantirbbs.ddns.net * Pensacola, FLã

Margaerynne wrote to Gamgee <=-ãã Ma> Re: Re: Y'all or Ya'll?ã Ma> By: Gamgee to HusTler on Tue May 02 2023 07:38 amãã > > > That person or group of two or more over there = Y'all.ãã > > Not really related, but funny - in the words of "My Cousin Vinny":ã > > Yutes.ãã Ma> 10/10 scene, but also exactly how I feel saying "y'all" in theã Ma> northwest.ãã Ma> "Do yooouuu alll have any coke?"ããHahaha, yep! I lived in the Seattle area for 6 years, years ago, and ãit's just not heard up that way. There are similar regional "dialects" ãall around the country.ãããã... System halted - Press all keys at once to continue.ã--- MultiMail/Linux v0.52ã þ Synchronet þ Palantir BBS * palantirbbs.ddns.net * Pensacola, FLã

Re: Re: Y'all or Ya'll?ã By: Gamgee to Margaerynne on Wed May 03 2023 08:35 pmãã > Hahaha, yep! I lived in the Seattle area for 6 years, years ago, andã > it's just not heard up that way. There are similar regional "dialects"ã > all around the country.ãã It's weird, because the West Coast will get you the most looks for saying y'allã as it's meant to be used, but it's also pretty heavy on what I call theã Corporate Y'All, where it's used as a straight substitute for any genderedã or other identifying words.ãã So "Y'all know when the game is going to start?" is grosse verboten, butã "Good morning, y'all!" is inclusive and forward-thinking.ãã---ã þ Synchronet þ Palantir BBS * palantirbbs.ddns.net * Pensacola, FLã

Margaerynne wrote to Gamgee <=-ãã Ma> Re: Re: Y'all or Ya'll?ã Ma> By: Gamgee to Margaerynne on Wed May 03 2023 08:35 pmãã > Hahaha, yep! I lived in the Seattle area for 6 years, years ago, andã > it's just not heard up that way. There are similar regional "dialects"ã > all around the country.ãã Ma> It's weird, because the West Coast will get you the most looksã Ma> for saying y'allã Ma> as it's meant to be used, but it's also pretty heavy on what Iã Ma> call theã Ma> Corporate Y'All, where it's used as a straight substitute forã Ma> any genderedã Ma> or other identifying words.ãã Ma> So "Y'all know when the game is going to start?" is grosseã Ma> verboten, butã Ma> "Good morning, y'all!" is inclusive and forward-thinking.ããLOL, yes I can see that being that way. Not much stranger than many ãthings out on that coast... ;-)ãããã... Gone crazy, be back later, please leave message.ã--- MultiMail/Linux v0.52ã þ Synchronet þ Palantir BBS * palantirbbs.ddns.net * Pensacola, FLã

Margaerynne wrote to Gamgee <=-ãã Ma> It's weird, because the West Coast will get you the most looks forã Ma> saying y'allã Ma> as it's meant to be used, but it's also pretty heavy on what I callã Ma> theã Ma> Corporate Y'All, where it's used as a straight substitute for anyã Ma> genderedã Ma> or other identifying words.ãããY'all is gender-inclusive, and bullet-dodging in many circumstances.ãã"Greetings, Beings!" doesn't have the same ring to it.ãããAside: I know a pretty blonde woman with a southern accent. The same wayãa woman with an Australian accent is a weak spot for a lot of Americanãmen, a southern accent in Australia had the same effect on men.ãããã... Only the machine keeps using time to make time to make time.ã--- MultiMail/Win v0.52ã þ Synchronet þ .: realitycheckbbs.org :: scientia potentia est :.ã

On 2023-04-25, Moondog <CAVEBBS!Moondog@vert.synchro.net> wrote:

Re: Re: Y'all or Ya'll?
By: Gamgee to Nightfox on Mon Apr 24 2023 06:59 pm

Nightfox wrote to Trapper <=-

Yes, thats true. But if your a redneck like myself, it's pronounced lik
#2 How Ya'll doin? for example. I have a bachelor's degree in english a
I still speak wrong. That's what growing on a up farm does to some of u

I don't know how "y'all" and "ya'll" would be pronounced differently..?

The first is basically one syllable, and the second is (sort of) two.
;-)

... YORGAMAK HAS ARRIVED AND WILL INITIATE DESTRUCTIMATION.

Y'all is well accepted. "Your people" is taken in a derogatory manner.

---
â–  Synchronet â–  The Cave BBS - Since 1992 - cavebbs.homeip.net

In the old times, "vosotros" was born in Spanish as "vos" (old
term for singular you) and otros, "others/anothers").
Thus, something like "yothers" wouldn't look weird at all.

---
ï¿­ Synchronet ï¿­ Vertrauen ï¿­ Home of Synchronet ï¿­ [vert/cvs/bbs].synchro.net

Re: Re: Y'all or Ya'll?ã By: anthk to All on Sat Jun 17 2023 02:15 pmãã > > > Tr> Yes, thats true. But if your a redneck like myself, it'sã > > > pronounced lik Tr> #2 How Ya'll doin? for example. I have a bachelor'sã > > > degree in english a Tr> I still speak wrong. That's what growing on aãã A bachelors degree meant something 30 years ago but not today. :-(ã ã |07 HusTlerãã---ã þ Synchronet þ thePharcyde_ telnet://bbs.pharcyde.org (Wisconsin)ã

Re: Re: Y'all or Ya'll?ã By: HusTler to anthk on Tue Jul 11 2023 03:22 pmãã > Re: Re: Y'all or Ya'll?ã > By: anthk to All on Sat Jun 17 2023 02:15 pmã >ã > > > > Tr> Yes, thats true. But if your a redneck like myself, it'sã > > > > pronounced lik Tr> #2 How Ya'll doin? for example. I have aã > > > > bachelor's degree in english a Tr> I still speak wrong. That's whatã > > > > growing on aã >ã > A bachelors degree meant something 30 years ago but not today. :-(ããwell it depends on the field.ã---ã þ Synchronet þ ::: BBSES.info - free BBS services :::ã

HusTler wrote to anthk <=-ãã > > > Tr> Yes, thats true. But if your a redneck like myself, it'sã > > > pronounced lik Tr> #2 How Ya'll doin? for example. I have a bachelor'sã > > > degree in english a Tr> I still speak wrong. That's what growing on aãã Hu> A bachelors degree meant something 30 years ago but not today.ããI see your point, and agree with it to some extent.ããHowever, a Bachelor degree is a stepping stone to a Masters degree, ãwhich is a stepping stone to a Doctorate degree. I can assure you (as I ãhave family members with those degrees), that it is worth something. A ãwhole lot of something.ãããã... He does the work of 3 Men...Moe, Larry & Curlyã--- MultiMail/Linux v0.52ã þ Synchronet þ Palantir BBS * palantirbbs.ddns.net * Pensacola, FLã

Re: Re: Y'all or Ya'll?ã By: Gamgee to HusTler on Tue Jul 11 2023 08:24 pmãã > > > Tr>> example. I have a bachelor's I still speakã Hu>> A bachelors degree meant something 30 years ago but not today.ãã Ga> I see your point, and agree with it to some extent.ãã Ga> However, a Bachelor degree is a stepping stone to a Masters degree, ã Ga> which is a stepping stone to a Doctorate degree. I can assure you (as I ã Ga> have family members with those degrees), that it is worth something. A ã Ga> whole lot of something.ã Oh I agree. It's certainly better than no degree or even an Associates. I have friends with B.A.'s and have jobs along side people without any degree. I think that's a disgrace and unfair. Just my 2 cents that's all.ã---ã þ Synchronet þ Diamond Mine Online BBS - bbs.dmine.net:24 - Fredericksburg, VA USAã

Hustler wrote to Gamgee <=-ãã Hu> Oh I agree. It's certainly better than no degree or even anã Hu> Associates. I have friends with B.A.'s and have jobs along side peopleã Hu> without any degree. I think that's a disgrace and unfair. Just my 2ã Hu> cents that's all. ---ããJust a Degree has no value.ããA Bachelor's in, say, engineering will get you a good job.ãA Master's in, say, women's studies is valueless.ããI've known too many people who fell for the "any degree is better than noãdegree" B.S. and ended up getting a valueless degree and lots of student loanãdebt.ããWhen I was in high school, even back then, the information to do a cost/benefitãanalysis on a college degree was easily available. It's even easier today wtihãthe Internet. It was simple for me to see how much my B.S. in Computer Scienceãwould cost and simple to see what the starting salaries would be.ããThe simple fact that we have so many people who **didn't** so that simple checkãbefore doing to college and taking out those student loans is very telling.ããã... Today is the first day of the rest of your life.ã--- MultiMail/Linux v0.52ã þ Synchronet þ ** The Gate BBS - Shelby, NC - thegateb.synchro.net **ã

Re: Re: Y'all or Ya'll?ã By: Hustler to Gamgee on Wed Jul 12 2023 07:39 amãã > Re: Re: Y'all or Ya'll?ã > By: Gamgee to HusTler on Tue Jul 11 2023 08:24 pmã > ã > > > > Tr>> example. I have a bachelor's I still speakã > Hu>> A bachelors degree meant something 30 years ago but not today.ã > ã > Ga> I see your point, and agree with it to some extent.ã > ã > Ga> However, a Bachelor degree is a stepping stone to a Masters degree,ã > Ga> which is a stepping stone to a Doctorate degree. I can assure you (as Iã > Ga> have family members with those degrees), that it is worth something. Aã > Ga> whole lot of something.ã > Oh I agree. It's certainly better than no degree or even an Associates. I hããDepending on the field, a degree or cert may equate to just being good at taki ãng tests or writing papers. Granted, these are great skills to have. I usedãto work at a place where a professional engineers license was all about signatãure authority. The folks doing the design work were contractors orãconsultants that didn't have a PE. The guy with the PE license had to reviewãand approve their work and sign off on it. The folks working for him may beãsmarter, but he harbors the responsibilty for their work.ããIn my time in IT, experience and application of knowledge were more importantãthan certs. Certs and degrees were tools for getting a job elsewhere.ãã---ã þ Synchronet þ The Cave BBS - Since 1992 - cavebbs.homeip.netã

Re: Re: Y'all or Ya'll?ã By: Hustler to Gamgee on Wed Jul 12 2023 07:39:39ãã Hu> Oh I agree. It's certainly better than no degree or even an Associates. Iã Hu> have friends with B.A.'s and have jobs along side people without anyã Hu> degree. I think that's a disgrace and unfair. Just my 2 cents that's all.ããYeah, kind of disgraceful that they spent all that money, and an institution took it, just so they can work in a job that doesn't even require one to begin with. Shameful that the education system steers people that way in order to better indoctrinate them all.ã ã ã-- ãMichael J. Ryan ã+o roughneckbbs.com ãtracker1@roughneckbbs.comãã---ã þ Synchronet þ Roughneck BBS - roughneckbbs.comã

Re: Re: Y'all or Ya'll?ã By: Tracker1 to Hustler on Sun Jul 16 2023 12:00 amãã > Re: Re: Y'all or Ya'll?ã > By: Hustler to Gamgee on Wed Jul 12 2023 07:39:39ã >ã > Hu> Oh I agree. It's certainly better than no degree or even anã >ã > Hu> Associates.ã > Hu> I have friends with B.A.'s and have jobs along side people without anyã > Hu> degree. I think that's a disgrace and unfair. Just my 2 cents that'sã > Hu> all.ã >ã > Yeah, kind of disgraceful that they spent all that money, and anã >ã > institutionã > took it, just so they can work in a job that doesn't even require one toã > begin with. Shameful that the education system steers people that way inã > order to better indoctrinate them all.ããpeople have the ability to think for themselves. there's also career counselors.ããi know a woman who went to school and got several useless degrees. she was in college from 18 to 30s. she's a car porter. i think she was in school becauseãshe didn't want to work (mom supported her) and she liked the school environment.ãã---ã þ Synchronet þ ::: BBSES.info - free BBS services :::ã

Tracker1 wrote to Hustler <=-ãã Hu> Oh I agree. It's certainly better than no degree or even an Associates. Iã Hu> have friends with B.A.'s and have jobs along side people without anyã Hu> degree. I think that's a disgrace and unfair. Just my 2 cents that's all.ãã Tr> Yeah, kind of disgraceful that they spent all that money, and anã Tr> institution took it, just so they can work in a job that doesn'tã Tr> even require one to begin with. Shameful that the educationã Tr> system steers people that way in order to better indoctrinateã Tr> them all.ããI think that in nearly all cases like that, the person who has a degree ãis likely partly/mostly at fault for their predicament. What I mean is ãthat the person likely has a "degree" in something relatively useless, ãsuch as fashion/art/performing arts, or maybe "ethnic studies". Not ãthat some of that isn't needed in society, but is not in high demand and ãthere are few jobs in those fields.ããGet a degree in medicine/engineering (any flavor)/business, and you ãwon't be in that situation. It's a case of "buyer beware".ããã... Gone crazy, be back later, please leave message.ã--- MultiMail/Linux v0.52ã þ Synchronet þ Palantir BBS * palantirbbs.ddns.net * Pensacola, FLã

I think that in nearly all cases like that, the person who has a degreeã> is likely partly/mostly at fault for their predicament. What I mean isã> that the person likely has a "degree" in something relatively useless,ã> such as fashion/art/performing arts, or maybe "ethnic studies". Notã> that some of that isn't needed in society, but is not in high demand andã> there are few jobs in those fields.ããI don't think that loan companies should give student loans to people whoãare going to major in something that is not in demand. IMHO, if you wantãto make your money back, it makes financial sense not to do so.ããã * SLMR 2.1a * Why do we have training bras? What can we teach them?ãã---ã þ Synchronet þ CAPCITY2 * capcity2.synchro.net * Telnet/SSH:2022/Rlogin/HTTPã

Dumas Walker wrote to GAMGEE <=-ãã > I think that in nearly all cases like that, the person who has a degreeã > is likely partly/mostly at fault for their predicament. What I mean isã > that the person likely has a "degree" in something relatively useless,ã > such as fashion/art/performing arts, or maybe "ethnic studies". Notã > that some of that isn't needed in society, but is not in high demand andã > there are few jobs in those fields.ãã DW> I don't think that loan companies should give student loans toã DW> people who are going to major in something that is not in demand.ã DW> IMHO, if you want to make your money back, it makes financialã DW> sense not to do so.ããPerhaps, but that brings up ethical questions... Why should a loan ãcompany get to decide what your kid can major in? That's none of their ãbusiness, IMHO. I do see your point on them wanting some say on the ãodds of them getting their money back one day, but... it's sticky.ããI go back to my original statement above. If a person decides to ãspend/borrow money to get a useless degree, that's on them. They will ã(theoretically) have to pay back the loan regardless of what degree they ãget, and if they want to make it hard on themselves, well.... ;-)ãããã... Behind every great man is an amazed mother-in-law!ã--- MultiMail/Linux v0.52ã þ Synchronet þ Palantir BBS * palantirbbs.ddns.net * Pensacola, FLã

Gamgee wrote to Dumas Walker <=-ãã Ga> Perhaps, but that brings up ethical questions... Why should a loanã Ga> company get to decide what your kid can major in?ãã Because YOUR KID IS THE COLLATERAL.ããã... Assume the relaxation length of photons in the atmosphere is constantã--- MultiMail/Win v0.52ã þ Synchronet þ .: realitycheckbbs.org :: scientia potentia est :.ã

poindexter FORTRAN wrote to Gamgee <=-ãã Ga> Perhaps, but that brings up ethical questions... Why should a loanã Ga> company get to decide what your kid can major in?ãã pF> Because YOUR KID IS THE COLLATERAL.ããWell, I suppose that is sort of true, in a strange way. Seems like it ãwould prevent more people from getting useless degrees, though.ãããã... So easy, a child could do it. Child sold separately.ã--- MultiMail/Linux v0.52ã þ Synchronet þ Palantir BBS * palantirbbs.ddns.net * Pensacola, FLã

Perhaps, but that brings up ethical questions... Why should a loanã> company get to decide what your kid can major in? That's none of theirã> business, IMHO. I do see your point on them wanting some say on theã> odds of them getting their money back one day, but... it's sticky.ããMaybe it should not be the loan company but maybe the college. I don'tãknow, it just seems like a lot of this could have been avoided if peopleãwere not allowed to get a useless degree that they were not going to parlayãinto something else (like Poly-Sci to go to Law School, or English to go toãEducation School, etc.).ããIt would mess up the indoctrination process, and also whatever schemes theãschool has going to fleece young people out of a lot of money.ãã> I go back to my original statement above. If a person decides toã> spend/borrow money to get a useless degree, that's on them. They willã> (theoretically) have to pay back the loan regardless of what degree theyã> get, and if they want to make it hard on themselves, well.... ;-)ããI don't disagree here. My disagreement comes when a politician, orãpolitical party, thinks it is my responsibility to help them pay it off. :(ããã * SLMR 2.1a * Bureaucrats cut red tape--lengthwise.ãã---ã þ Synchronet þ CAPCITY2 * capcity2.synchro.net * Telnet/SSH:2022/Rlogin/HTTPã

Perhaps, but that brings up ethical questions... Why should a loanã> Ga> company get to decide what your kid can major in?ãã> Because YOUR KID IS THE COLLATERAL.ããTheir debt-ridden future certainly is a part of it. :)ããã * SLMR 2.1a * I idiot-proof my programs, but along comes a bigger idiotãã---ã þ Synchronet þ CAPCITY2 * capcity2.synchro.net * Telnet/SSH:2022/Rlogin/HTTPã

Re: Re: Y'all or Ya'll?ã By: Gamgee to poindexter FORTRAN on Tue Jul 18 2023 02:03 pmãã Ga>> Perhaps, but that brings up ethical questions... Why should a loanã Ga>> company get to decide what your kid can major in?ãã pF>> Because YOUR KID IS THE COLLATERAL.ãã Ga> Well, I suppose that is sort of true, in a strange way. Seems like it ã Ga> would prevent more people from getting useless degrees, though.ããThis is a bit of a devil's advocate argument, but I suppose we never know what someone will end up doing for work. They may end up at an unrelated job that happens to pay fairly well (though the likelihood is probably fairly low). Maybe they can find a way to make use of their degree somehow, in a job that typically is unrelated.ããNightfoxãã---ã þ Synchronet þ Digital Distortion: digitaldistortionbbs.comã

Dumas Walker wrote to GAMGEE <=-ãã > Perhaps, but that brings up ethical questions... Why should a loanã > company get to decide what your kid can major in? That's none of theirã > business, IMHO. I do see your point on them wanting some say on theã > odds of them getting their money back one day, but... it's sticky.ãã DW> Maybe it should not be the loan company but maybe the college. Iã DW> don't know, it just seems like a lot of this could have beenã DW> avoided if people were not allowed to get a useless degree thatã DW> they were not going to parlay into something else (like Poly-Sciã DW> to go to Law School, or English to go to Education School, etc.).ããI doubt that most colleges care, when it comes right down to it. A ãstudent getting a useless degree is still a paying student. That's ãreally all they're interested in.ãã DW> It would mess up the indoctrination process, and also whateverã DW> schemes the school has going to fleece young people out of a lotã DW> of money.ããCertainly. Again, it doesn't matter what the student may be learning, ãjust that they are paying.ãã > I go back to my original statement above. If a person decides toã > spend/borrow money to get a useless degree, that's on them. They willã > (theoretically) have to pay back the loan regardless of what degree theyã > get, and if they want to make it hard on themselves, well.... ;-)ãã DW> I don't disagree here. My disagreement comes when a politician,ã DW> or political party, thinks it is my responsibility to help themã DW> pay it off. :(ããIt's one of the most aggravating of current events that I can think of. ãAbsolutely infuriates me. There is no valid or justifiable reason to be ãdoing it, other than a political stunt to win the votes of said students ã(and/or their parents). That's all it is.ããã... Diplomacy is saying 'Nice Doggy' until you find a rock.ã--- MultiMail/Linux v0.52ã þ Synchronet þ Palantir BBS * palantirbbs.ddns.net * Pensacola, FLã

Nightfox wrote to Gamgee <=-ãã Ga>> Perhaps, but that brings up ethical questions... Why should a loanã Ga>> company get to decide what your kid can major in?ãã pF>> Because YOUR KID IS THE COLLATERAL.ãã Ga> Well, I suppose that is sort of true, in a strange way. Seems like itã Ga> would prevent more people from getting useless degrees, though.ãã Ni> This is a bit of a devil's advocate argument, but I suppose weã Ni> never know what someone will end up doing for work. They may endã Ni> up at an unrelated job that happens to pay fairly well (thoughã Ni> the likelihood is probably fairly low). Maybe they can find aã Ni> way to make use of their degree somehow, in a job that typicallyã Ni> is unrelated.ããPossibly, but an unrelated job wouldn't be likely to require "that" ãdegree, because it's.... unrelated. I mean, it boggles my mind that a ãyoung person would *choose* to major in something like "ethnic studies", ãor "international studies", "child and family studies". These are real ãdegrees that are offered, I'm not making those terms up. Even things ãlike "Philosophy" or "Art history" are in the same category. What ãsensible person thinks that one of those degrees is going to ever ãprovide them with valuable job prospects? The school doesn't care, ãbecause those students are lining their pockets just the same as the ã"real" students are. Shameless harvesting of money, and guaranteed ãlong-term debt are the motivation for, and the result of, these stupid ã"degrees". Pisses me off.ãããã... When all else fails, read the instructions.ã--- MultiMail/Linux v0.52ã þ Synchronet þ Palantir BBS * palantirbbs.ddns.net * Pensacola, FLã

Re: Re: Y'all or Ya'll?ã By: Gamgee to Nightfox on Tue Jul 18 2023 08:31 pmãã Ga> degrees that are offered, I'm not making those terms up. Even things ã Ga> like "Philosophy" or "Art history" are in the same category. What ã Ga> sensible person thinks that one of those degrees is going to ever ã Ga> provide them with valuable job prospects? The school doesn't care, ã Ga> because those students are lining their pockets just the same as the ã Ga> "real" students are. Shameless harvesting of money, and guaranteed ã Ga> long-term debt are the motivation for, and the result of, these stupid ã Ga> "degrees". Pisses me off.ããI could see someone with an art history degree working at an art museum (such as the Louvre and such), but yeah, I've heard of such college degrees that aren't likely to have good job prospects. I think "general studies" is another one I've seen. If someone wants to major in something like that, to better themselves or something, it probably makes more sense to pay their own money or don't major in it if they can't afford it.ããNightfoxãã---ã þ Synchronet þ Digital Distortion: digitaldistortionbbs.comã

Re: Re: Y'all or Ya'll?ã By: Nightfox to Gamgee on Tue Jul 18 2023 04:09 pmãã > This is a bit of a devil's advocate argument, but I suppose we never knowã > what someone will end up doing for work. They may end up at an unrelatedã > job that happens to pay fairly well (though the likelihood is probablyã > fairly low). Maybe they can find a way to make use of their degree somehow,ã > in a job that typically is unrelated.ããThe useless degree argument is a little bit of a red herring on multiple levels, including this one. It's a scape goat to blame this mess on.ãã---TLMãã---ã þ Synchronet þ Nite Eyes BBS - To make people happy about my tagline everywhere...ã

Re: Re: Y'all or Ya'll?ã By: The Lizard Master to Nightfox on Wed Jul 19 2023 08:58 amãã > Re: Re: Y'all or Ya'll?ã > By: Nightfox to Gamgee on Tue Jul 18 2023 04:09 pmã >ã > > This is a bit of a devil's advocate argument, but I suppose we never knowã > > what someone will end up doing for work. They may end up at an unrelatedã > > job that happens to pay fairly well (though the likelihood is probablyã > > fairly low). Maybe they can find a way to make use of their degreeã > > somehow, in a job that typically is unrelated.ã >ã > The useless degree argument is a little bit of a red herring on multipleã > levels, including this one. It's a scape goat to blame this mess on.ã >ããhow is it misleading?ã---ã þ Synchronet þ ::: BBSES.info - free BBS services :::ã

Re: Re: Y'all or Ya'll?ã By: Dumas Walker to GAMGEE on Tue Jul 18 2023 04:49 pmãã DW> Maybe it should not be the loan company but maybe the college. I don'tã DW> know, it just seems like a lot of this could have been avoided if peopleã DW> were not allowed to get a useless degree that they were not going toã DW> parlay into something else (like Poly-Sci to go to Law School, or Englishã DW> to go to Education School, etc.).ããA college is basically in the business of selling a product, which is education and training. I doubt they'd want to be selective about who's buying from them. However, I have heard of ivy league colleges with strict entrance exams and such that filter out certain prospective students.ãã DW> I don't disagree here. My disagreement comes when a politician, orã DW> political party, thinks it is my responsibility to help them pay it off.ã DW> :( ããI understand totally. I've wondered about this, and for countries that make college inexpensive or free for students, I've wondered if it's because their government cares about the country having a strong economy with an educated workforce. Ever since I was a kid, I've heard things in the news that compared to other countries, students in the US falling behind in math, science, and other skills that can contribute to valuable jobs in technology and manufacturing and such, which are very important for things that people are doing these days. It would be good to have many people knowledgeable and skilled in these areas to be able to fill local jobs and help the local economy overall.ããWhat's worse is lately I've heard that high schools in the US have been relaxing their standards in topics such as English, math, etc., so that the schools can say they have more students passing and graduating. If that's true, then we have more students graduting these days with lower abilities and skills than in past years.ããAs far as college tuition, college costs have gotten a bit ridiculous, and it would be good if the costs came down.ããNightfoxãã---ã þ Synchronet þ Digital Distortion: digitaldistortionbbs.comã

Re: Re: Y'all or Ya'll?ã By: Gamgee to Dumas Walker on Tue Jul 18 2023 08:23 pmãã >> politician, or political party, thinks it is my responsibility toã >> help them ã >> pay it off. :(ãã Ga> It's one of the most aggravating of current events that I can think of. ã Ga> Absolutely infuriates me. There is no valid or justifiable reason to be ã Ga> doing it, other than a political stunt to win the votes of said students ã Ga> (and/or their parents). That's all it is.ããI've wondered about this, and I think one of the factors about this is whether the society is more individualistic or group-oriented. People in the US tend to be more individualistic, so it makes sense that the thought process for many people in the US would be "I shouldn't have to pay for other students, and if they want to be successful, they need to pay for it themselves". In other countries that make college tuition inexpensive or free, I've wondered if it's because of a more collectivist mindset - Perhaps their government wants to have a strong economy by having an educated workforce, so they want to do what they can to make a higher education attainable for many of its citizens.ããNightfoxãã---ã þ Synchronet þ Digital Distortion: digitaldistortionbbs.comã

Re: Re: Y'all or Ya'll?ã By: Nightfox to Dumas Walker on Wed Jul 19 2023 01:39 pmãã > Re: Re: Y'all or Ya'll?ã > By: Dumas Walker to GAMGEE on Tue Jul 18 2023 04:49 pmã >ã > DW> Maybe it should not be the loan company but maybe the college. I don'tã > DW> know, it just seems like a lot of this could have been avoided ifã > DW> people were not allowed to get a useless degree that they were notã > DW> going to parlay into something else (like Poly-Sci to go to Law School,ã > DW> or English to go to Education School, etc.).ã >ã > A college is basically in the business of selling a product, which isã > education and training. I doubt they'd want to be selective about who'sã > buying from them. However, I have heard of ivy league colleges with strictã > entrance exams and such that filter out certain prospective students.ããtell that to my friend. his daughter couldn't get into a school she liked. then the next year she checked that she was a person of color because her mom was hispanic and she got into college easy.ã---ã þ Synchronet þ ::: BBSES.info - free BBS services :::ã

This is a bit of a devil's advocate argument, but I suppose we never knowãhatã> omeone will end up doing for work. They may end up at an unrelated job thatãã> pens to pay fairly well (though the likelihood is probably fairly low). ãaybeã> hey can find a way to make use of their degree somehow, in a job thatãypicallã> is unrelated.ããI dated someone who had a Spanish degree, but who was working in IT and, atãthat time, was making (net) about $7-9K more than I was with my MIS degree.ããShe didn't get along with her boss and eventually got laid off, so I am notãsure what she is doing now.ããã * SLMR 2.1a * Don't sweat petty things, or pet sweaty things.ãã---ã þ Synchronet þ CAPCITY2 * capcity2.synchro.net * Telnet/SSH:2022/Rlogin/HTTPã

The useless degree argument is a little bit of a red herring on multipleãevelsã> including this one. It's a scape goat to blame this mess on.ããMost people that habitually complain that they have a degree and cannot get aãjob do not have a degree in a field that is at all in demand.ããThe only time the degree is not relevant is when the economy is really badãand everyone is in the same boat.ããã * SLMR 2.1a * I used to have a handle on life, then it broke.ãã---ã þ Synchronet þ CAPCITY2 * capcity2.synchro.net * Telnet/SSH:2022/Rlogin/HTTPã

Re: Re: Y'all or Ya'll?ã By: Dumas Walker to THE LIZARD MASTER on Wed Jul 19 2023 05:23 pmãã > Most people that habitually complain that they have a degree and cannot getã > a job do not have a degree in a field that is at all in demand.ã >ã > The only time the degree is not relevant is when the economy is really badã > and everyone is in the same boat.ã >ããwell it depends on the field. my ex works at a place where they won't hire anybody without a degree anymore. they didn't have bad experiences, either.ãthey just demand degrees for every position, even production.ã---ã þ Synchronet þ ::: BBSES.info - free BBS services :::ã

Nightfox wrote to Gamgee <=-ãã Ga> degrees that are offered, I'm not making those terms up. Even thingsã Ga> like "Philosophy" or "Art history" are in the same category. Whatã Ga> sensible person thinks that one of those degrees is going to everã Ga> provide them with valuable job prospects? The school doesn't care,ã Ga> because those students are lining their pockets just the same as theã Ga> "real" students are. Shameless harvesting of money, and guaranteedã Ga> long-term debt are the motivation for, and the result of, these stupidã Ga> "degrees". Pisses me off.ãã Ni> I could see someone with an art history degree working at an artã Ni> museum (such as the Louvre and such), but yeah, I've heard ofããSure, that's reasonable, but there just aren't very many job openings in ãsuch a field. A new graduate with that degree has virtually NO CHANCE ãat getting employed for that.ãã Ni> such college degrees that aren't likely to have good jobã Ni> prospects. I think "general studies" is another one I've seen.ã Ni> If someone wants to major in something like that, to betterã Ni> themselves or something, it probably makes more sense to payã Ni> their own money or don't major in it if they can't afford it.ããAbsolutely. Or spend that money (of their own) on a vocational / trade ãschool of some kind. Often times those type of jobs pay better than a ãtraditional "degree required" job, these days.ãããã... So easy, a child could do it. Child sold separately.ã--- MultiMail/Linux v0.52ã þ Synchronet þ Palantir BBS * palantirbbs.ddns.net * Pensacola, FLã

Nightfox wrote to Gamgee <=-ãã >> politician, or political party, thinks it is my responsibility toã >> help them pay it off. :(ãã Ga> It's one of the most aggravating of current events that I can think of.ã Ga> Absolutely infuriates me. There is no valid or justifiable reason to beã Ga> doing it, other than a political stunt to win the votes of said studentsã Ga> (and/or their parents). That's all it is.ãã Ni> I've wondered about this, and I think one of the factors aboutã Ni> this is whether the society is more individualistic orã Ni> group-oriented. People in the US tend to be moreã Ni> individualistic, so it makes sense that the thought process forã Ni> many people in the US would be "I shouldn't have to pay for otherã Ni> students, and if they want to be successful, they need to pay forã Ni> it themselves". In other countries that make college tuitionã Ni> inexpensive or free, I've wondered if it's because of a moreã Ni> collectivist mindset - Perhaps their government wants to have aã Ni> strong economy by having an educated workforce, so they want toã Ni> do what they can to make a higher education attainable for manyã Ni> of its citizens.ããI think that's all correct. It's also a sign of those countries being ãmuch more receptive to the ideas/beliefs of socialism, which is ãgenerally not very well received here in the USA. Independence, ãfreedom, and small government / small taxes are sort of a fundamental ãthing in America, and have been since .... 1776. ;-)ãããã... Freedom isn't free.ã--- MultiMail/Linux v0.52ã þ Synchronet þ Palantir BBS * palantirbbs.ddns.net * Pensacola, FLã

The Lizard Master wrote to Nightfox <=-ãã > This is a bit of a devil's advocate argument, but I suppose we never knowã > what someone will end up doing for work. They may end up at an unrelatedã > job that happens to pay fairly well (though the likelihood is probablyã > fairly low). Maybe they can find a way to make use of their degree somehow,ã > in a job that typically is unrelated.ãã TLM> The useless degree argument is a little bit of a red herring onã TLM> multiple levels, including this one. It's a scape goat to blameã TLM> this mess on.ããPlease tell us more, O wise one. Rather than, you know, just throwing ãout a bold statement like that with no supporting argument.ãããã... YORGAMAK HAS ARRIVED AND WILL INITIATE DESTRUCTIMATION.ã--- MultiMail/Linux v0.52ã þ Synchronet þ Palantir BBS * palantirbbs.ddns.net * Pensacola, FLã

Re: Re: Y'all or Ya'll?ã By: MRO to The Lizard Master on Wed Jul 19 2023 12:49 pmãã > > The useless degree argument is a little bit of a red herring on multipleã > > levels, including this one. It's a scape goat to blame this mess on.ã >ã >ã > how is it misleading?ããBecause the problem doesn't stem from people who racked up 50k debt for a gender studies program and now are expecting a bail out.ãã---TLMãã---ã þ Synchronet þ Nite Eyes BBS - To make people happy about my tagline everywhere...ã

Re: Re: Y'all or Ya'll?ã By: The Lizard Master to MRO on Wed Jul 19 2023 09:50 pmãã > Re: Re: Y'all or Ya'll?ã > By: MRO to The Lizard Master on Wed Jul 19 2023 12:49 pmã >ã > > > The useless degree argument is a little bit of a red herring onã > > > multiple levels, including this one. It's a scape goat to blame thisã > > > mess on.ã >ã >ã > > how is it misleading?ã >ã > Because the problem doesn't stem from people who racked up 50k debt for aã > gender studies program and now are expecting a bail out.ã >ããyes, but isn't that what is happening? I know a lot of people that got degrees with no future. and biden spoke up and had them believing it would be forgiven.ããwhere do you think it stems from?ã---ã þ Synchronet þ ::: BBSES.info - free BBS services :::ã

Re: Re: Y'all or Ya'll?ã By: Gamgee to Dumas Walker on Mon Jul 17 2023 09:55 pmãã > Perhaps, but that brings up ethical questions... Why should a loanã > company get to decide what your kid can major in? That's none of theirããWell, if you don't have the funds to begin with, you depend on a third party tohelp you out.ããMaybe the big problem is we as a society have decided to buy a lot of thingsãon debt, including University degrees, thus skyrocketing prices.ããPeople around me is taking loans to pay their vacations. Think about that.ããMaybe it is not a bad thing that the debt tap gets tightened a little so peoplestarts saving and paying from their savings instead of depending on the debtãsystem. Lots of things we buy on debt are expensive just because they are paidãwith debt.ãã--ãgopher://gopher.richardfalken.com/1/richardfalkenãã---ã þ Synchronet þ Palantir BBS * palantirbbs.ddns.net * Pensacola, FLã

Re: Re: Y'all or Ya'll?ã By: Gamgee to Dumas Walker on Tue Jul 18 2023 08:23 pmãã > I doubt that most colleges care, when it comes right down to it. Aã > student getting a useless degree is still a paying student. That'sã > really all they're interested in.ããI think some degrees are more profitable than others.ããA college where they teach Engineering needs a whole lot of technical means. Mycollege had plenty CNC machinery and laboratories to teach students how to doãstuff. Meanwhile, the humanities college had an empty hall where they put aãpiece of political propaganda every month. It is easy to see which degree takesmore money to provide to the University and which degree is cheap to provideãand doubles as a cost-efficient political weapon.ãã--ãgopher://gopher.richardfalken.com/1/richardfalkenãã---ã þ Synchronet þ Palantir BBS * palantirbbs.ddns.net * Pensacola, FLã

Re: Re: Y'all or Ya'll?ã By: Nightfox to Dumas Walker on Wed Jul 19 2023 01:39 pmãã > ngs that people are doing these days. It would be good to have many people > ã > What's worse is lately I've heard that high schools in the US have been rela > graduting these days with lower abilities and skills than in past years.ããIt is vote purchasing.ããThe issue with pseudo-free (because it is tax funded, partially or totally)ãcollege education is that you produce way more professionals than you need.ãYou won't have scarcity of Engineers but you will have plenty working asãsomething other than an Engineer. 60% of Engineering students that get theirãdegree will be working as Engineers here within 3 years of coming out. THatãmeans 40% of them won't. And Engineers are the lucky ones.ããLet's face it: we don't need a legion of degreed people. We need a legion ofãqualified workers and a small number of degreed people.ãã--ãgopher://gopher.richardfalken.com/1/richardfalkenãã---ã þ Synchronet þ Palantir BBS * palantirbbs.ddns.net * Pensacola, FLã

Re: Re: Y'all or Ya'll?ã By: Nightfox to Gamgee on Wed Jul 19 2023 01:44 pmãã > I've wondered about this, and I think one of the factors about this is wheth > ould be "I shouldn't have to pay for other students, and if they want to be > Perhaps their government wants to have a strong economy by having an educateãIt has nothing to do with collectivist mindset for most people.ããIt is rather "I don't want to pay, so I will complain to the gov until somebodyelse pays for it."ããTrue Socialists that would contribute to the system at a net loss in order toãimprove the lives of others are so scarce you would consider them a myth.ãã--ãgopher://gopher.richardfalken.com/1/richardfalkenãã---ã þ Synchronet þ Palantir BBS * palantirbbs.ddns.net * Pensacola, FLã

Re: Re: Y'all or Ya'll?ã By: Arelor to Nightfox on Thu Jul 20 2023 05:52 amãã > something other than an Engineer. 60% of Engineering students that get their > degree will be working as Engineers here within 3 years of coming out. THatã > means 40% of them won't. And Engineers are the lucky ones.ãã* These are Spanish statistics.ãã--ãgopher://gopher.richardfalken.com/1/richardfalkenãã---ã þ Synchronet þ Palantir BBS * palantirbbs.ddns.net * Pensacola, FLã

The Lizard Master wrote to Nightfox <=-ãã TLM> The useless degree argument is a little bit of a red herring onã TLM> multiple levels, including this one. It's a scape goat to blame thisã TLM> mess on.ããYou're partly right. The useless degree argument is not a red herring, butãit's part of a bigger problem.ãã1. Students choose useless degrees to get.ã2. Colleges, and other Elitists, constantly push the idea that you need "aãdegree" to succeed. The reality is that you don't **need** a degree and if youãthink you do, you need a useful one. And for some colleges, even the usefulãdegrees have become so watered down that they are effectively useless.ã3. High school students didn't do a simple cost/benefit analysis beforeãchoosing to go to college and choosing their degree.ããBack in ancient times (i.e. Before Internet), the resources existed toã1. Get information about degrees - what jobs wanted them and how much thoseãjobs paid.ã2. See what it would cost to get that degree.ããIt was pretty easy for me to choose my major seeing that my salary from myãfirst year of work, even at entry level, would pay for all my college - tuitionãplus room and board.ããAnd today, with the Internet, those resources are really easy to get access to.ããToday, though, if students did a cost/benefit analysis on a college educationãthey'd never go. So the Elitists have a vested interest in discouraging that.ããã... Hot water Heaters: hot water needs heating?ã--- MultiMail/Linux v0.52ã þ Synchronet þ ** The Gate BBS - Shelby, NC - thegateb.synchro.net **ã

Re: Re: Y'all or Ya'll?ã By: Gamgee to The Lizard Master on Wed Jul 19 2023 09:23 pmãã > > This is a bit of a devil's advocate argument, but I suppose we never knowã > > what someone will end up doing for work. They may end up at an unrelatedã > > job that happens to pay fairly well (though the likelihood is probablyã > > fairly low). Maybe they can find a way to make use of their degreeã > > somehow, in a job that typically is unrelated.ã >ã > TLM> The useless degree argument is a little bit of a red herring onã > TLM> multiple levels, including this one. It's a scape goat to blameã > TLM> this mess on.ã >ã > Please tell us more, O wise one. Rather than, you know, just throwingã > out a bold statement like that with no supporting argument.ããI don't remember reading any data to refute. Thank you for recognizing my wisdom though.ãã---TLMãã---ã þ Synchronet þ Nite Eyes BBS - To make people happy about my tagline everywhere...ã

Arelor wrote to Gamgee <=-ãã > Perhaps, but that brings up ethical questions... Why should a loanã > company get to decide what your kid can major in? That's none of theirãã Ar> Well, if you don't have the funds to begin with, you depend on aã Ar> third party tohelp you out.ããWell, yes. That's what we've been talking about... But my question ãwas: why does that third party get to decide what you (or your kid) is ãallowed to study?ãã Ar> Maybe the big problem is we as a society have decided to buy aã Ar> lot of things on debt, including University degrees, thusã Ar> skyrocketing prices.ãã Ar> People around me is taking loans to pay their vacations. Thinkã Ar> about that.ãã Ar> Maybe it is not a bad thing that the debt tap gets tightened aã Ar> little so peoplestarts saving and paying from their savingsã Ar> instead of depending on the debt system. Lots of things we buy onã Ar> debt are expensive just because they are paid with debt.ããAll very true, and quite sad.ãããã... Gone crazy, be back later, please leave message.ã--- MultiMail/Linux v0.52ã þ Synchronet þ Palantir BBS * palantirbbs.ddns.net * Pensacola, FLã

Arelor wrote to Gamgee <=-ãã > I doubt that most colleges care, when it comes right down to it. Aã > student getting a useless degree is still a paying student. That'sã > really all they're interested in.ãã Ar> I think some degrees are more profitable than others.ããThat's exactly what we've been talking about in this thread... Yes.ãã Ar> A college where they teach Engineering needs a whole lot ofã Ar> technical means. Mycollege had plenty CNC machinery andã Ar> laboratories to teach students how to do stuff. Meanwhile, theã Ar> humanities college had an empty hall where they put a piece ofã Ar> political propaganda every month. It is easy to see which degreeã Ar> takesmore money to provide to the University and which degree isã Ar> cheap to provide and doubles as a cost-efficient politicalã Ar> weapon.ããGood points. The "hard science" degrees do cost the university more to ãadminister. That makes the "useless degrees" more affordable.ãããã... Gone crazy, be back later, please leave message.ã--- MultiMail/Linux v0.52ã þ Synchronet þ Palantir BBS * palantirbbs.ddns.net * Pensacola, FLã

The Lizard Master wrote to MRO <=-ãã > > The useless degree argument is a little bit of a red herring on multipleã > > levels, including this one. It's a scape goat to blame this mess on.ãã > how is it misleading?ãã TLM> Because the problem doesn't stem from people who racked up 50kã TLM> debt for a gender studies program and now are expecting a bailã TLM> out.ããSo............ who *DOES* the problem stem from?ãããã... He does the work of 3 Men...Moe, Larry & Curlyã--- MultiMail/Linux v0.52ã þ Synchronet þ Palantir BBS * palantirbbs.ddns.net * Pensacola, FLã

Re: Re: Y'all or Ya'll?ã By: Arelor to Gamgee on Thu Jul 20 2023 05:40 amãã Ar> People around me is taking loans to pay their vacations. Think about that.ããI don't know of anyone here getting a loan to pay for a vaction. Maybe that's more of a problem where you are, or maybe people here are doing that and just not talking much about it. However, oftentimes, I hear people say they can't go on a vacaction because they don't have money for it.. So I doubt people here are taking loans for vacations.ããNightfoxãã---ã þ Synchronet þ Digital Distortion: digitaldistortionbbs.comã

Re: Re: Y'all or Ya'll?ã By: Nightfox to Arelor on Thu Jul 20 2023 09:01 amãã > Re: Re: Y'all or Ya'll?ã > By: Arelor to Gamgee on Thu Jul 20 2023 05:40 amã >ã > Ar> People around me is taking loans to pay their vacations. Think aboutã > Ar> that.ã >ã > I don't know of anyone here getting a loan to pay for a vaction. Maybeã > that's more of a problem where you are, or maybe people here are doing thatã > and just not talking much about it. However, oftentimes, I hear people sayã > they can't go on a vacaction because they don't have money for it.. So Iã > doubt people here are taking loans for vacations.ã >ããpeople do that all the time. whats wrong with that?ããI've taken a 401k loan out for little vacations. you just pay it back to yourself. I didn't even need to. I just did it so i had even more cash for the trip.ããi've also taken loans out from my credit union when i was in a pinch.ã---ã þ Synchronet þ ::: BBSES.info - free BBS services :::ã

Re: Re: Y'all or Ya'll?ã By: MRO to Nightfox on Thu Jul 20 2023 11:47 amãã >> I don't know of anyone here getting a loan to pay for a vaction. ãã MR> people do that all the time. whats wrong with that?ããI didn't say there was anything wrong with it, I just don't know of anyone who has done that.ãã MR> I've taken a 401k loan out for little vacations. you just pay it back toã MR> yourself. I didn't even need to. I just did it so i had even more cash forã MR> the trip.ãã MR> i've also taken loans out from my credit union when i was in a pinch.ããIf it's something where you're borrowing from yourself like that, I don't see a problem with that. But vacation activities are one of those things where I feel like it's not really critical enough for me to want to get a loan for. There are things I'd definitely like to do on a vacation, but if I don't have the money for it already, I'd probably just not do it (though I'd still take time off work to have a break from work).ããNightfoxãã---ã þ Synchronet þ Digital Distortion: digitaldistortionbbs.comã

Re: Re: Y'all or Ya'll?ã By: Nightfox to MRO on Thu Jul 20 2023 11:05 amãã > If it's something where you're borrowing from yourself like that, I don'tã > see a problem with that. But vacation activities are one of those thingsã > where I feel like it's not really critical enough for me to want to get aã > loan for. There are things I'd definitely like to do on a vacation, but if Iã > don't have the money for it already, I'd probably just not do it (though I'dã > still take time off work to have a break from work).ããhow about just a couple thousand bucks?ãpoor people have a right to be comfortable sometime too.ãã---ã þ Synchronet þ ::: BBSES.info - free BBS services :::ã

I don't know of anyone here getting a loan to pay for a vaction. Maybeã Ni> that's more of a problem where you are, or maybe people here are doingã Ni> that and just not talking much about it. However, oftentimes, I hearã Ni> people say they can't go on a vacaction because they don't have moneyã Ni> for it.. So I doubt people here are taking loans for vacations.ã Ni> ããI'd never consider loan for vacation and I don't come from a country that was always prosperous nor was I. It's been always either no travel type of vacation or more modest travel before I could fly to resorts 3 times a year.ããthere is so many options for relatively cheap, yet affordable vacation unless you have one paycheck and whole family with kids to put into a bus.ãã-h1ãã... Xerox Alto was the thing. Anything after we use is just a mere copy.ã

Re: Re: Y'all or Ya'll?ã By: MRO to Nightfox on Thu Jul 20 2023 11:47 amãã > people do that all the time. whats wrong with that?ã > ããThe issue is people is deciding to take 15% interest loans in order to go onãvacations to cool places instead of going on vacation somewhere they canãactually afford - often with no good plan to pay the debt off.ããDebt has two specific functions. The first one is to use it as a lever so youãget to make money wihtout losing capital: you buy a machine on a loan, then usethe machine to generate money, pay the loan off and then generate profits. Theãsecond is getting things you MUST get but you cannot afford right away.ããGetting a 3k USD loan in order to waste it in Paris when you could spend 400 inTorrevieja is abusing your luck, specially because people who tends to do justãthis have a very poor cashflow.ããIt is not "wrong", in the sense that I don't think it is wrong for people toãspill their guts in ritualistic suicide if that is what they feel they need toãdo. I just think it is bad for a lot of people doing it.ãã--ãgopher://gopher.richardfalken.com/1/richardfalkenãã---ã þ Synchronet þ Palantir BBS * palantirbbs.ddns.net * Pensacola, FLã

Re: Re: Y'all or Ya'll?
By: Nightfox to Arelor on Thu Jul 20 2023 09:01 am

I don't know of anyone here getting a loan to pay for a vaction. Maybe that > cause they don't have money for it.. So I doubt people here are taking loan >

The subject of conversation this Wednesday afternoon at the clinic was that a number of employees of an independent Doctor were getting entramped in this sort of thing. º15% interest loans with less than a year to pay them off.

A guy I hired to help me out with some yard maintenance this summer told me he is having trouble with a debt collection agency regarding a vacation loan.

There used to be TV advertisement for micro-credits. The marketing used to target people who needed the money for a new car of for the vacation of their dreams. I think most car dealers will get you some financing nowadays, so guesswhat micro-credits are being used for...

--
gopher://gopher.richardfalken.com/1/richardfalken

---
ï¿­ Synchronet ï¿­ Palantir BBS * palantirbbs.ddns.net * Pensacola, FL

Re: Re: Y'all or Ya'll?ã By: MRO to Nightfox on Thu Jul 20 2023 02:22 pmãã > how about just a couple thousand bucks?ã > poor people have a right to be comfortable sometime too.ããI think it is wasteful, but if there is a good plan to pay the debt off I thinkit is less of a problem.ããStill, I think priorizing your expenses and knowing which stuff you can affordãis an important skill. Fact of the matter is if you are not rolling in money,ãthere are plenty vacation options that are affordable. Half the people I knowãwho go on exotic trips to Asia could as well have visited a touristic town inãSpain for a pitiful price instead. When you decide for an expensive option youãeither can afford it or you are pulling over your weight, and a lot of peopleãis pulling over their weight. People can and do pull over their weight, but theprice is then they have to use the government handouts for their kid'sãeducation to pay debts off instead of spending them on their kids.ããThere was this video from a guy from India explaining why people needs toãevaluate which smartphone they get properly. I think a lot of Spaniards shouldãwatch it, because this guys just talks some fisher-price economics that seemãforgotten nowadays. Bottom of the matter is that if you buy something that doesnot generate you any money, you should be looking into ways to prevent it fromãcosting you a lot of money, and asking yourself how do you intend to pay it.ããAnd it would seem not many are doing that.ãã--ãgopher://gopher.richardfalken.com/1/richardfalkenãã---ã þ Synchronet þ Palantir BBS * palantirbbs.ddns.net * Pensacola, FLã

Re: Re: Y'all or Ya'll?ã By: MRO to The Lizard Master on Thu Jul 20 2023 05:51 amãã > > > > The useless degree argument is a little bit of a red herring onã > > > > multiple levels, including this one. It's a scape goat to blameã > > > > this mess on.ã >ã >ã > > > how is it misleading?ã >ã > > Because the problem doesn't stem from people who racked up 50k debt for aã > > gender studies program and now are expecting a bail out.ã >ã >ã > yes, but isn't that what is happening? I know a lot of people that gotã > degrees with no future. and biden spoke up and had them believing it wouldã > be forgiven.ã >ã > where do you think it stems from?ããIt has a lot of levels. Interest rates were completely unreasonable right out of the gate. The governement was making money on this and was borrowed against. As people here have been saying, the overall cost of education have just gone up too much as well. Having an 18 year old take on such debt at high rates is just a dumb idea. The useless degree thing is just an attack line diversion. It's easy to blame it on the one person wanting their debt cleared because they were stupid, but there were more people just trying to get the American dream.ãã---TLMãã---ã þ Synchronet þ Nite Eyes BBS - To make people happy about my tagline everywhere...ã

Hello Dr. What!ãã DW> It was pretty easy for me to choose my major seeing that my salary fromã DW> my first year of work, even at entry level, would pay for all my collegeã DW> - tuition plus room and board.ããAfter taxes, and costs of living? ..I doubt it.ããã--- OpenXP 5.0.57ã * Origin: Ogg's Dovenet Point (723:320/1.9)ã þ Synchronet þ CAPCITY2 * capcity2.synchro.net * Telnet/SSH:2022/Rlogin/HTTPã

Ogg wrote to Dr. What <=-ãã DW> It was pretty easy for me to choose my major seeing that my salary fromã DW> my first year of work, even at entry level, would pay for all my collegeã DW> - tuition plus room and board.ãã Og> After taxes, and costs of living? ..I doubt it.ããI think you need to comb your hair up. My statements went right over yourãhead.ããã... I have been poor and I have been rich. Rich is better.ã--- MultiMail/Linux v0.52ã þ Synchronet þ ** The Gate BBS - Shelby, NC - thegateb.synchro.net **ã

Re: Re: Y'all or Ya'll?ã By: Arelor to MRO on Thu Jul 20 2023 04:41 pmãã > > people do that all the time. whats wrong with that?ã >ã >ã > The issue is people is deciding to take 15% interest loans in order to go onã > vacations to cool places instead of going on vacation somewhere they canã > actually afford - often with no good plan to pay the debt off.ãã15% is way high for a loan. where'd you get that number?ãã > Getting a 3k USD loan in order to waste it in Paris when you could spend 400ã > inTorrevieja is abusing your luck, specially because people who tends to doã > justã > this have a very poor cashflow.ããi don't really see 3k as a lot of money. vacations are something you only do once in a while so why not be comfortable. otherwise, stay home.ãã > It is not "wrong", in the sense that I don't think it is wrong for people toã > spill their guts in ritualistic suicide if that is what they feel they needã > to do. I just think it is bad for a lot of people doing it.ããnot everyone who has debt is destroying themselves. debt can be a useful tool.ãwhen i had zero debt i was worse off than i was now. now i have some debt and i have a decent credit score. if i wanted to i could go get a car with no downpayment today. i did that with my last car, infact. i thought my old car was done and so i bought this other one. i ended up fixing old car and now i have 2 reliable vehicles.ã---ã þ Synchronet þ ::: BBSES.info - free BBS services :::ã

Re: Re: Y'all or Ya'll?ã By: Arelor to Nightfox on Thu Jul 20 2023 04:49 pmãã > The subject of conversation this Wednesday afternoon at the clinic was thatã > a number of employees of an independent Doctor were getting entramped inã > this sort of thing. ­15% interest loans with less than a year to pay themã > off.ã >ããthat sounds like they aren't using a respectable institution and they're using some ripoff predatory entity to get loans.ã---ã þ Synchronet þ ::: BBSES.info - free BBS services :::ã

Re: Re: Y'all or Ya'll?ã By: Arelor to MRO on Thu Jul 20 2023 05:05 pmãã > By: MRO to Nightfox on Thu Jul 20 2023 02:22 pmã >ã > > how about just a couple thousand bucks?ã > > poor people have a right to be comfortable sometime too.ã >ã > I think it is wasteful, but if there is a good plan to pay the debt off Iã > thinkit is less of a problem.ã >ããif you work hard and you are not wasteful 99% of the time, whats so bad about taking a vacation and being comfortable.ããyou're talking about a few thousand dollars like it's 10k and the people have bad credit.ã---ã þ Synchronet þ ::: BBSES.info - free BBS services :::ã

Re: Re: Y'all or Ya'll?ã By: The Lizard Master to MRO on Thu Jul 20 2023 03:58 pmãã > It has a lot of levels. Interest rates were completely unreasonable rightã > out of the gate. The governement was making money on this and was borrowedã > against. As people here have been saying, the overall cost of education haveã > just gone up too much as well. Having an 18 year old take on such debt atã > high rates is just a dumb idea. The useless degree thing is just an attackã > line diversion. It's easy to blame it on the one person wanting their debtã > cleared because they were stupid, but there were more people just trying toã > get the American dream.ããnobody is forcing them to get those loans. they can also get grants and money from other sources. they can get into programs and get free training and certification for skilled trades.ããi think going to school and getting a useless degree is a viable point.ãwhy go to school for something that will never work out? these people haveãno way of making enough money to pay back their loans.ããi've personally known people who have gone to school for years and years.ãtheir professions do not match their education.ã---ã þ Synchronet þ ::: BBSES.info - free BBS services :::ã

Re: Re: Y'all or Ya'll?ã By: Dr. What to Ogg on Fri Jul 21 2023 07:24 amãã > -=> Ogg wrote to Dr. What <=-ã >ã > DW> It was pretty easy for me to choose my major seeing that my salary fromã > DW> my first year of work, even at entry level, would pay for all myã > DW> collegeã > DW> - tuition plus room and board.ããpretty sure you are the first person to ever say that.ãmakes me wonder how truthful that statement is.ã---ã þ Synchronet þ ::: BBSES.info - free BBS services :::ã

Re: Re: Y'all or Ya'll?ã By: MRO to Arelor on Fri Jul 21 2023 08:08 amãã MR> not everyone who has debt is destroying themselves. debt can be a usefulã MR> tool. when i had zero debt i was worse off than i was now. now i have someã MR> debt and i have a decent credit score. if i wanted to i could go get a carããToo much debt can be bad though. Also, for quite a while, my only debt was a mortgage payment and credit card (and I'd pay off my credit card every month), and I have a pretty good credit score. I prefer to have as little debt as possible. The only reason I have a credit card is so that I can maintain my credit score and to get rewards that they often offer for using a credit card, and I just pay it off every month.ããNightfoxãã---ã þ Synchronet þ Digital Distortion: digitaldistortionbbs.comã

Re: Re: Y'all or Ya'll?ã By: MRO to Arelor on Fri Jul 21 2023 08:12 amãã >> I think it is wasteful, but if there is a good plan to pay the debtã >> off I thinkit is less of a problem.ãã MR> if you work hard and you are not wasteful 99% of the time, whats so badã MR> about taking a vacation and being comfortable.ããThere's nothing wrong with taking a vacation. I think the issue was with getting a loan to pay for the vacation. Personally, if I couldn't afford to travel somewhere for a vacation, I'd probably still take time off work but just stay in the area or do something less expensive.ããNightfoxãã---ã þ Synchronet þ Digital Distortion: digitaldistortionbbs.comã

MRO wrote to Dr. What <=-ãã > DW> It was pretty easy for me to choose my major seeing that my salary fromã > DW> my first year of work, even at entry level, would pay for all myã > DW> collegeã > DW> - tuition plus room and board.ãã MR> pretty sure you are the first person to ever say that.ã MR> makes me wonder how truthful that statement is.ãã30-some years ago, I'd say it's pretty darn accurate.ããRealistically, things change. Everything could look really good for someãmajor, but 4 years later, the bottom could have dropped out. But that would beãthe exception, not the rule.ããToday... That's a different story. Colleges are **FAR** more expensive. Moreãexpensive than just Inflation could cause. With all the Woke BS, the degreesãat many of them are so watered down that companies pretty much have to assumeãthat they will need to educate you - meaning that you start at a much lowerãsalary.ããIt used to be that I steered high schoolers toward college. Today, I tell themãto avoid most universities.ããã... Great beer bellies are made, not born.ã--- MultiMail/Linux v0.52ã þ Synchronet þ ** The Gate BBS - Shelby, NC - thegateb.synchro.net **ã

MRO wrote to Arelor <=-ãã MR> i don't really see 3k as a lot of money. vacations are something youã MR> only do once in a while so why not be comfortable. otherwise, stayã MR> home.ããIt's not the amount. It's the prioritization.ããTaking out a 3K loan to get a new roof on your house is good prioritization.ãTaking out a 3K loan for a vacation is bad prioritization.ããNow, there's probably some edge cases to think of (like taking a big familyãvacation because it's the last time some of these relatives will be alive) isãprobably a good thing. But vacations are nice-to-haves and, really, you shouldãonly take if you have the funds available.ããPeople who take out loans for vacations are, for the most part,:ã1. poor plannersã2. have their priorities completely messed upããã... Floppy Disk = Lower back trouble.ã--- MultiMail/Linux v0.52ã þ Synchronet þ ** The Gate BBS - Shelby, NC - thegateb.synchro.net **ã

Re: Re: Y'all or Ya'll?ã By: Dr. What to MRO on Sat Jul 22 2023 08:20 amãã DW> People who take out loans for vacations are, for the most part,:ã DW> 1. poor plannersã DW> 2. have their priorities completely messed upããI really had never heard of people taking loans for vacations until this came up here recently. I've never known anyone to say they've done that.ããNightfoxãã---ã þ Synchronet þ Digital Distortion: digitaldistortionbbs.comã

cleared because they were stupid, but there were more people just trying toã>> get the American dream.ãã> nobody is forcing them to get those loans. they can also get grants andãoneyã> rom other sources.ããIf they qualify for those sources.ãã> they can get into programs and get free training and certifiã> cation for skilled trades.ããAnd make better money, too.ãã> i think going to school and getting a useless degree is a viable point.ã> why go to school for something that will never work out? these people haveã> no way of making enough money to pay back their loans.ãã +1. Doing this to try "to get the American dream" must be a sign thatãtheir American dream is to live off of society and constantly complainãabout how they've been done wrong.ããã * SLMR 2.1a * Remember, to a computer 1 + 1 = 10.ãã---ã þ Synchronet þ CAPCITY2 * capcity2.synchro.net * Telnet/SSH:2022/Rlogin/HTTPã

Re: Re: Y'all or Ya'll?ã By: Dr. What to MRO on Sat Jul 22 2023 08:20 amãã > -=> MRO wrote to Arelor <=-ã >ã > MR> i don't really see 3k as a lot of money. vacations are something youã > MR> only do once in a while so why not be comfortable. otherwise, stayã > MR> home.ã >ã > It's not the amount. It's the prioritization.ã >ã > Taking out a 3K loan to get a new roof on your house is good prioritization.ãã3k pays for a new roof on a house? i don't think soã---ã þ Synchronet þ ::: BBSES.info - free BBS services :::ã

Re: Re: Y'all or Ya'll?ã By: Nightfox to Dr. What on Sat Jul 22 2023 08:14 amãã > Re: Re: Y'all or Ya'll?ã > By: Dr. What to MRO on Sat Jul 22 2023 08:20 amã >ã > DW> People who take out loans for vacations are, for the most part,:ã > DW> 1. poor plannersã > DW> 2. have their priorities completely messed upã >ã > I really had never heard of people taking loans for vacations until thisã > came up here recently. I've never known anyone to say they've done that.ã >ããMaybe you don't really know a lot of people? I've worked with people that did 401k loans for vacations.ããis a little bit of money a big deal?ã---ã þ Synchronet þ ::: BBSES.info - free BBS services :::ã

Re: Re: Y'all or Ya'll?ã By: MRO to The Lizard Master on Fri Jul 21 2023 08:18 amãã > i think going to school and getting a useless degree is a viable point.ã > why go to school for something that will never work out? these people haveã > no way of making enough money to pay back their loans.ããSure, you can find examples of this, and I can get the frustration.ãã---TLMãã---ã þ Synchronet þ Nite Eyes BBS - To make people happy about my tagline everywhere...ã

Re: Re: Y'all or Ya'll?ã By: MRO to Nightfox on Sat Jul 22 2023 11:51 amãã MR> Maybe you don't really know a lot of people? I've worked with people thatã MR> did 401k loans for vacations.ãã MR> is a little bit of money a big deal?ããDepends on what you consider a little bit of money. But in general, borrowing money to do things is living beyond your means and generally doesn't seem like a good idea to me. "It's not a big deal" can get you into a trap of owing a lot of money if you do that too much.ããNightfoxãã---ã þ Synchronet þ Digital Distortion: digitaldistortionbbs.comã

Re: Re: Y'all or Ya'll?ã By: Nightfox to MRO on Sat Jul 22 2023 02:17 pmãã > Re: Re: Y'all or Ya'll?ã > By: MRO to Nightfox on Sat Jul 22 2023 11:51 amã >ã > MR> Maybe you don't really know a lot of people? I've worked with peopleã > MR> that did 401k loans for vacations.ã >ã > MR> is a little bit of money a big deal?ã >ã > Depends on what you consider a little bit of money. But in general,ã > borrowing money to do things is living beyond your means and generallyã > doesn't seem like a good idea to me. "It's not a big deal" can get you intoã > a trap of owing a lot of money if you do that too much.ããokay but if it doesn't hurt you any and you can do it, it's not a big deal, right?ããthat's what i'm saying.ãand i don't know of any places that will give you a lot of frequent loans.ã---ã þ Synchronet þ ::: BBSES.info - free BBS services :::ã

Re: Re: Y'all or Ya'll?ã By: MRO to Arelor on Fri Jul 21 2023 08:08 amãã > 15% is way high for a loan. where'd you get that number?ããJust what some co-employees told me they have signed up.ãã--ãgopher://gopher.richardfalken.com/1/richardfalkenãã---ã þ Synchronet þ Palantir BBS * palantirbbs.ddns.net * Pensacola, FLã

On 22 Jul 2023, Dumas Walker said the following...ã ã DW> > i think going to school and getting a useless degree is a viable point.ã DW> > why go to school for something that will never work out? these people haã DW> > no way of making enough money to pay back their loans.ã DW> ã DW> +1. Doing this to try "to get the American dream" must be a sign thatã DW> their American dream is to live off of society and constantly complainã DW> about how they've been done wrong.ããi don't know how extensive the degree options were in the past, but it seems to me even from what i remember there were a lot more classes unrelated to your degree. lots of math, writing, and science. you learned a lot more than whatever your degree says and came out the other side as being a good bet for any company, regardless of the major.ããnow it seems like they've genericized and dumbed down the general education side and ramped up all the "fun" (to the student) stuff. flood the market and here we are.ããit's kind of funny because throughout the 80s and 90s all sorts of randomãpeople helped all these companies modernize .. many having never touched a computer for the first 40 years of their life, and now it seems like big businesses are babysitters for adults.ãã--- Mystic BBS v1.12 A47 2021/12/25 (Windows/32)ã * Origin: cold fusion - cfbbs.net - grand rapids, miã

Re: Re: Y'all or Ya'll?ã By: MRO to Arelor on Fri Jul 21 2023 08:12 amãã > you're talking about a few thousand dollars like it's 10k and the people havãFIirst of all, adjusting to the cost of living, paying 1000 dollar off in Spainis harder.ããSecondly, when your free cashflow (after covering basic expenses) is 100 dollaror so, then 3k is a whole lot of money, and I am specifically talking aboutãpeople who has no saving power yet they get into all sorts of traps.ãã--ãgopher://gopher.richardfalken.com/1/richardfalkenãã---ã þ Synchronet þ Palantir BBS * palantirbbs.ddns.net * Pensacola, FLã

Nightfox wrote to Dr. What <=-ãã DW> People who take out loans for vacations are, for the most part,:ã DW> 1. poor plannersã DW> 2. have their priorities completely messed upãã Ni> I really had never heard of people taking loans for vacations untilã Ni> this came up here recently. I've never known anyone to say they'veã Ni> done that.ããI've known a few, but it's very rare for me too.ããBut the people that I associate with tend to live within their means.ããã... Circular Definition: see Definition, Circular.ã--- MultiMail/Linux v0.52ã þ Synchronet þ ** The Gate BBS - Shelby, NC - thegateb.synchro.net **ã

It's not the amount. It's the prioritization.ãã> Taking out a 3K loan to get a new roof on your house is good prioritization.ã> Taking out a 3K loan for a vacation is bad prioritization.ãã> People who take out loans for vacations are, for the most part,:ã> 1. poor plannersã> 2. have their priorities completely messed upãã + 1ããã * SLMR 2.1a * Working hard to become roadkill on the Infobahn.ãã---ã þ Synchronet þ CAPCITY2 * capcity2.synchro.net * Telnet/SSH:2022/Rlogin/HTTPã

Re: Re: Y'all or Ya'll?ã By: Gamgee to Nightfox on Wed Jul 19 2023 09:13 pmãã > I think that's all correct. It's also a sign of those countries beingã > much more receptive to the ideas/beliefs of socialism, which isã > generally not very well received here in the USA. Independence,ã > freedom, and small government / small taxes are sort of a fundamentalã > thing in America, and have been since .... 1776. ;-)ãã A communal mindset isn't only present in socialism.ãã Americans used to be very community-minded and eager to participate in civic life.ã After all, why wouldn't you want your neighborhood to flourish? Why wouldn't you wantã the best for the schools that educate your children, the city that they live in, andã the state they claim as their home?ãã People didn't join fraternities, industry-specific credit unions, and neighborhood councilsã because they were stupid or communists -- they joined because, as in 1776, it makes the mostã sense to join with people like you.ããã Hell, even the titans of industry collaborated and colluded all the time.ã It's the most American thing there is, all the way back to "Join or Die".ãã---ã þ Synchronet þ Palantir BBS * palantirbbs.ddns.net * Pensacola, FLã

Re: Re: Y'all or Ya'll?ã By: MRO to Nightfox on Sat Jul 22 2023 11:51 amãã > Maybe you don't really know a lot of people? I've worked with people thatã > did 401k loans for vacations.ããYikes!ãã---TLMãã---ã þ Synchronet þ Nite Eyes BBS - To make people happy about my tagline everywhere...ã

Re: Re: Y'all or Ya'll?ã By: The Lizard Master to MRO on Mon Jul 24 2023 01:07 pmãã > Re: Re: Y'all or Ya'll?ã > By: MRO to Nightfox on Sat Jul 22 2023 11:51 amã >ã > > Maybe you don't really know a lot of people? I've worked with peopleã > > that did 401k loans for vacations.ã >ã > Yikes!ã >ããwhats wrong with that? you just pay it back.ãyou're paying it back to yourself.ã---ã þ Synchronet þ ::: BBSES.info - free BBS services :::ã

Re: Re: Y'all or Ya'll?ã By: MRO to The Lizard Master on Mon Jul 24 2023 08:37 pmãã > > > Maybe you don't really know a lot of people? I've worked with peopleã > > > that did 401k loans for vacations.ã >ã > > Yikes!ã >ã >ã > whats wrong with that? you just pay it back.ã > you're paying it back to yourself.ããTon of reasons, you are paying back that loan with after tax dollars so you completely wipe out and lose out on probably the single biggest benefit of pretax dollars. Also if you have to take a loan out for a vacation from your retirement you are also probably more likely to default on yourself. It also depends on you keeping you current employer, you get fired you need to pay that back immediately.ããJust not a great idea.ãã---TLMãã---ã þ Synchronet þ Nite Eyes BBS - To make people happy about my tagline everywhere...ã

Margaerynne wrote to Gamgee <=-ãã Ma> Re: Re: Y'all or Ya'll?ã Ma> By: Gamgee to Nightfox on Wed Jul 19 2023 09:13 pmãã > I think that's all correct. It's also a sign of those countries beingã > much more receptive to the ideas/beliefs of socialism, which isã > generally not very well received here in the USA. Independence,ã > freedom, and small government / small taxes are sort of a fundamentalã > thing in America, and have been since .... 1776. ;-)ãã Ma> A communal mindset isn't only present in socialism.ãã Ma> Americans used to be very community-minded and eager toã Ma> participate in civic life.ã Ma> After all, why wouldn't you want your neighborhood to flourish?ã Ma> Why wouldn't you wantã Ma> the best for the schools that educate your children, the cityã Ma> that they live in, andã Ma> the state they claim as their home?ãã Ma> People didn't join fraternities, industry-specific creditã Ma> unions, and neighborhood councilsã Ma> because they were stupid or communists -- they joined because,ã Ma> as in 1776, it makes the mostã Ma> sense to join with people like you.ãã Ma> Hell, even the titans of industry collaborated and colluded allã Ma> the time.ã Ma> It's the most American thing there is, all the way back to "Joinã Ma> or Die".ããAll true, and no argument from me on any of it.ããPlease remember, though, that the topic of discussion was basically that ãEuropeans are generally more receptive to socialism - as in who pays for ãthe "free stuff". College educations and the forgiving of student debt, ãto be specific.ãããã... Socialist w/knife & fork seeks capitalist w/food.ã--- MultiMail/Linux v0.52ã þ Synchronet þ Palantir BBS * palantirbbs.ddns.net * Pensacola, FLã

MRO wrote to The Lizard Master <=-ãã MR> Re: Re: Y'all or Ya'll?ã MR> By: The Lizard Master to MRO on Mon Jul 24 2023 01:07 pmãã > > Maybe you don't really know a lot of people? I've worked with peopleã > > that did 401k loans for vacations.ãã > Yikes!ãã MR> whats wrong with that? you just pay it back.ã MR> you're paying it back to yourself.ããApparently you don't understand much about investing. Even the easy ãparts like how interest accrues over time, and that reducing the ãprincipal has a large effect on the total value that it will be worth in ã20-30 years, even if you do "pay it back", which often/usually doesn't ãhappen. You lose money in the end.ããã... The world is full of surprises, very few of which are pleasant.ã--- MultiMail/Linux v0.52ã þ Synchronet þ Palantir BBS * palantirbbs.ddns.net * Pensacola, FLã

MRO wrote to The Lizard Master <=-ãã > > that did 401k loans for vacations.ã >ã > Yikes!ã >ãã MR> whats wrong with that? you just pay it back.ã MR> you're paying it back to yourself.ããAnd while you're paying it back, that money ISN'T earning interest, making yourã401K less valuable.ããã... Cross river *THEN* insult alligator.ã--- MultiMail/Linux v0.52ã þ Synchronet þ ** The Gate BBS - Shelby, NC - thegateb.synchro.net **ã

Margaerynne wrote to Gamgee <=-ãã Ma> A communal mindset isn't only present in socialism.ããOnly a most disingenuous person would try to conflate socialism with being in aãcommunity. But we've come to expect such things from you.ãã Ma> After all, why wouldn't you want your neighborhood to flourish? Whyã Ma> wouldn't you wantã Ma> the best for the schools that educate your children, the city thatã Ma> they live in, andã Ma> the state they claim as their home?ããPeople have been pooling their resources to make the whole community prosperãfor a very long time. But such pooling is not socialist because everyoneãinvolved is choosing the benefits over the drawbacks. Anyone who chooses mayãelect to NOT participate or stop participating.ããUnder socialism, as you ignore, there is no choice. The State owns everything.ã The State tells you what to do. You do not choose to participate and youãcannot choose to NOT participate. And, in many socialist societied, you couldãnot even choose to leave - especially if you were a productive person, becauseãsocialist states tend to have few of these people.ãã Ma> People didn't join fraternities, industry-specific credit unions, andã Ma> neighborhood councilsã Ma> because they were stupid or communists -- they joined because, as inããAnd, once again, conflating different ideas to push your agenda.ããNo one forces you join a frat or a credit union.ããI don't know why neighboorhood councils even factors in to this. Those areãprimarily for wannabe Elitists who want to tell others what do to.ãã Ma> 1776, it makes the mostã Ma> sense to join with people like you.ããAhhh... Pushing the tribalism. Your masters would be impressed that you snuckãthat one in.ããThey need to keep everyone in their own little groups to make it much easier toãcontrol them. Divide and conquer.ãã Ma> Hell, even the titans of industry collaborated and colluded all theã Ma> time.ããAnd, of course, the usual "rich men mad" tired old trope.ããSocialists are the larval form of dictators. And they are **always** jealousãbecause others have far more ability than they ever have. So they have to keepãpushing to "pull everyone up", which is socialist-speak for "pulling everyoneãdown".ãã Ma> It's the most American thing there is, all the way back to "Join orã Ma> Die".ããWhich had nothing to do with socialism.ããã... When a girl goes bad--men go right after her.ã--- MultiMail/Linux v0.52ã þ Synchronet þ ** The Gate BBS - Shelby, NC - thegateb.synchro.net **ã

Re: Re: Y'all or Ya'll?ã By: Dr. What to MRO on Tue Jul 25 2023 07:35 amãã > >> that did 401k loans for vacations.ãã >> Yikes!ãã MR>> whats wrong with that? you just pay it back. you're paying it back toã MR>> yourself.ãã DW> And while you're paying it back, that money ISN'T earning interest, makingã DW> your 401K less valuable. ããAnd just to pay for a vacation.. Not worth it. If I couldn't afford that, I'd just stay home for my vacation. Just taking time off work can still be good.ãã---ã þ Synchronet þ Digital Distortion: digitaldistortionbbs.comã

Re: Re: Y'all or Ya'll?ã By: The Lizard Master to MRO on Tue Jul 25 2023 07:44 amãã > > whats wrong with that? you just pay it back.ã > > you're paying it back to yourself.ã >ã > Ton of reasons, you are paying back that loan with after tax dollars so youã > completely wipe out and lose out on probably the single biggest benefit ofã > pretax dollars. Also if you have to take a loan out for a vacation from yourã > retirement you are also probably more likely to default on yourself. It alsoã > depends on you keeping you current employer, you get fired you need to payã > that back immediately.ã >ããi think you don't know much about the subject and you are jumping to extreme conclusions. they will not let you take out a loan you can't pay off. there has to be some there to cover it.ãã > Just not a great idea.ã >ããthat's your opinion. you've never done it, though.ã---ã þ Synchronet þ ::: BBSES.info - free BBS services :::ã

Re: Re: Y'all or Ya'll?ã By: Dr. What to MRO on Tue Jul 25 2023 07:35 amãã > -=> MRO wrote to The Lizard Master <=-ã >ã > > > that did 401k loans for vacations.ã >ã > > Yikes!ã >ã >ã > MR> whats wrong with that? you just pay it back.ã > MR> you're paying it back to yourself.ã >ã > And while you're paying it back, that money ISN'T earning interest, makingã > your 401K less valuable.ã >ããbig deal. i'm not saying do a full withdrawl. lighten up.ã---ã þ Synchronet þ ::: BBSES.info - free BBS services :::ã

Re: Re: Y'all or Ya'll?ã By: Dr. What to Margaerynne on Tue Jul 25 2023 07:57 amãã > -=> Margaerynne wrote to Gamgee <=-ã >ã > Ma> A communal mindset isn't only present in socialism.ã >ã > Only a most disingenuous person would try to conflate socialism with beingã > in a community. But we've come to expect such things from you.ã >ããwho's we? do you have a bird in your pocket?ãmargaerynne isn't really infamous for anything.ã---ã þ Synchronet þ ::: BBSES.info - free BBS services :::ã

Re: Re: Y'all or Ya'll?ã By: Nightfox to Dr. What on Tue Jul 25 2023 08:12 amãã > Re: Re: Y'all or Ya'll?ã > By: Dr. What to MRO on Tue Jul 25 2023 07:35 amã >ã > > >> that did 401k loans for vacations.ã >ã > >> Yikes!ã >ã > MR>> whats wrong with that? you just pay it back. you're paying it backã >ã > toã > MR>> yourself.ã >ã > DW> And while you're paying it back, that money ISN'T earning interest,ã > DW> making your 401K less valuable.ã >ã > And just to pay for a vacation.. Not worth it. If I couldn't affordã >ã > that,ã > I'd just stay home for my vacation. Just taking time off work can still beã > good.ããyou guys are a bunch of limp dicks. good thing we arent in the old bbs days andãhave local meetups. you guys are boring.ãã---ã þ Synchronet þ ::: BBSES.info - free BBS services :::ã

Re: Re: Y'all or Ya'll?ã By: Nightfox to Dr. What on Sat Jul 22 2023 08:14 amãã Ni> I really had never heard of people taking loans for vacations until thisã Ni> came up here recently. I've never known anyone to say they've done that.ããI know plenty of people who have. Whether that be an outright loan, or redrawing from your mortgage.ããI personally haven't but to me it seems like it might be a better option than putting a $10k vacation on your credit card at 21% APR when you can't pay it back within the interest free period and people generally seem to have no qualms about doing that.ãã---ã þ Synchronet þ Mortal BBS - Blue Mountains, Australia - bbs.mortalbbs.com:23ã

Re: Re: Y'all or Ya'll?ã By: Ewing to Nightfox on Wed Jul 26 2023 08:15 amãã Ni>> I really had never heard of people taking loans for vacations until thisã Ni>> came up here recently. I've never known anyone to say they've done that.ãã Ew> I know plenty of people who have. Whether that be an outright loan, orã Ew> redrawing from your mortgage.ãã Ew> I personally haven't but to me it seems like it might be a better optionã Ew> than putting a $10k vacation on your credit card at 21% APR when you can'tã Ew> pay it back within the interest free period and people generally seem toã Ew> have no qualms about doing that.ããI've never put that much on a credit card for a vacation.. Any vacation I've taken, I've saved up for it beforehand.ããNightfoxãã---ã þ Synchronet þ Digital Distortion: digitaldistortionbbs.comã

Re: Re: Y'all or Ya'll?ã By: Nightfox to Ewing on Tue Jul 25 2023 04:04 pmãã > Ew> option than putting a $10k vacation on your credit card at 21% APR whenã > Ew> you can't pay it back within the interest free period and peopleã > Ew> generally seem to have no qualms about doing that.ã >ã > I've never put that much on a credit card for a vacation.. Any vacationã > I've taken, I've saved up for it beforehand.ã >ããyou're like the weirdest guy on here.ã---ã þ Synchronet þ ::: BBSES.info - free BBS services :::ã

Re: Re: Y'all or Ya'll?ã By: Dr. What to Margaerynne on Tue Jul 25 2023 07:57 amãã > Which had nothing to do with socialism.ãã I think you're either wildly misunderstanding what I wrote, or looking for someone to talk to.ãã If it's the latter, hit me up a little more politely and we can try again.ããã Anyway, I'm mostly flattered you expect anything from me at all. It's nice to be noticed <3ãã---ã þ Synchronet þ Palantir BBS * palantirbbs.ddns.net * Pensacola, FLã

Re: Re: Y'all or Ya'll?ã By: MRO to The Lizard Master on Tue Jul 25 2023 10:34 amãã > > Ton of reasons, you are paying back that loan with after tax dollars soã > > you completely wipe out and lose out on probably the single biggestã > > benefit of pretax dollars. Also if you have to take a loan out for aã > > vacation from your retirement you are also probably more likely toã > > default on yourself. It also depends on you keeping you current employer,ã > > you get fired you need to pay that back immediately.ã >ã >ã > i think you don't know much about the subject and you are jumping to extremeã > conclusions. they will not let you take out a loan you can't pay off. thereã > has to be some there to cover it.ããIt's not a sound financial decision especially for a vacation. Others here have stated more reasons as to why.ãã > that's your opinion. you've never done it, though.ããSure. I don't plan on it because objectively I don't think it's a good idea though. It's not like saying "I've never tried BBQ sauce, but I don't like it."ãã---TLMãã---ã þ Synchronet þ Nite Eyes BBS - To make people happy about my tagline everywhere...ã

Re: Re: Y'all or Ya'll?ã By: MRO to Nightfox on Tue Jul 25 2023 08:04 pmãã > Ew>> option than putting a $10k vacation on your credit card at 21% APRã > Ew>> when you can't pay it back within the interest free period and peopleã > Ew>> generally seem to have no qualms about doing that.ãã >> I've never put that much on a credit card for a vacation.. Any vacationã >> I've taken, I've saved up for it beforehand.ãã MR> you're like the weirdest guy on here.ããI think you're trolling now.. Making sound financial decisions isn't weird. I'm not going to put $10,000 on a credit card for a vacation, and I don't think many people in their right mind would do that.ããAnyway, if I'm weird for that, then I don't want to be normal.ããNightfoxãã---ã þ Synchronet þ Digital Distortion: digitaldistortionbbs.comã

Re: Re: Y'all or Ya'll?ã By: The Lizard Master to MRO on Tue Jul 25 2023 04:18 pmãã > > i think you don't know much about the subject and you are jumping toã > > extreme conclusions. they will not let you take out a loan you can't payã > > off. there has to be some there to cover it.ã >ã > It's not a sound financial decision especially for a vacation. Others hereã > have stated more reasons as to why.ã >ããjust one other guy.ãã > > that's your opinion. you've never done it, though.ã >ã > Sure. I don't plan on it because objectively I don't think it's a good ideaã > though. It's not like saying "I've never tried BBQ sauce, but I don't likeã > it."ããwhatever dude. people do it. live with it.ã---ã þ Synchronet þ ::: BBSES.info - free BBS services :::ã

Re: Re: Y'all or Ya'll?ã By: Nightfox to MRO on Tue Jul 25 2023 07:01 pmãã > MR> you're like the weirdest guy on here.ã >ã > I think you're trolling now.. Making sound financial decisions isn't weird.ã > I'm not going to put $10,000 on a credit card for a vacation, and I don'tããno, you're weird.ã---ã þ Synchronet þ ::: BBSES.info - free BBS services :::ã

Re: Re: Y'all or Ya'll?ã By: Gamgee to Margaerynne on Tue Jul 25 2023 07:50 amããã > Please remember, though, that the topic of discussion was basically thatã > Europeans are generally more receptive to socialism - as in who pays forã > the "free stuff". College educations and the forgiving of student debt,ã > to be specific.ãã I might be getting my wires crossed, especially trying to trace a thread through two weeks of crosstalk, but I think your original comment was in response to societies favoring individuals or communities. Obviously, please feel free to correct me if I'm wrong.ãã My main point is that I don't think forgiving student debt (or covering the cost of college) requires you to be receptive -- or even tolerant -- of socialism. Socialism in the sense that relates to control over the means of production, the organization of the economy, etc. etc. rather than simply "stuff is subsidized by taxpayers/the government/society.ãã I favor student loan forgiveness (to a point, not necessarily a complete and permanent amnesty) and subsidized public college because it seems like an easy investment into the future labor pool, especially as automation and ever-growing tech industries continue to turn expertise into economic growth.ã I don't particularly care about la revolucion, and I want neither Peron nor Castro haunting this country. But I do want America to remain productive and competitive, and I don't think that's done by continuing to increase the cost of education well beyond inflation.ãã But, at the end of the day, there's room for reasonable disagreement.ã Even with us both being reasonable people, I'm not sure this is going to c hange either of our minds.ãã---ã þ Synchronet þ Palantir BBS * palantirbbs.ddns.net * Pensacola, FLã

MRO wrote to The Lizard Master <=-ãã > > i think you don't know much about the subject and you are jumping toã > > extreme conclusions. they will not let you take out a loan you can't payã > > off. there has to be some there to cover it.ãã > It's not a sound financial decision especially for a vacation. Others hereã > have stated more reasons as to why.ãã MR> just one other guy.ããMore than one.ãã > > that's your opinion. you've never done it, though.ãã > Sure. I don't plan on it because objectively I don't think it's a good ideaã > though. It's not like saying "I've never tried BBQ sauce, but I don't likeã > it."ãã MR> whatever dude. people do it. live with it.ããYep, people do it. Idiots do it. Idiots like you.ãããã... Ignorance can be cured. Stupid is forever.ã--- MultiMail/Linux v0.52ã þ Synchronet þ Palantir BBS * palantirbbs.ddns.net * Pensacola, FLã

Re: Re: Y'all or Ya'll?ã By: Margaerynne to Gamgee on Tue Jul 25 2023 09:54 pmãã > ã > I favor student loan forgiveness (to a point, not necessarily a complete an > s continue to turn expertise into economic growth.ã > I don't particularly care about la revolucion, and I want neither Peron nor > beyond inflation.ã > ã > But, at the end of the day, there's room for reasonable disagreement.ã > Even with us both being reasonable people, I'm not sure this is going to cãI'd argue that the education machine is a mean of production - since itãproduces professionals, at least in theory. Therefore any attempt from theãGovernment or any authority structure to take over it using cohercitive meansãis a Socialist action.ããWhen a Government becomes the primary source of funds for a corporation, thatãcorporation becomes a branch of the Government. See Spanish examples such asãACS or Indra.ããNow, the problem with forgiving loans or using tax money to fund education isãthat you massify education (which is bad), you overproduce professionals (whichis bad) and are sending the message that education may get as expensive as itãwants to get, because the Government will cover for it (which is bad becauseãyou end up paying for it through the Government).ããBut I dare say the premise that formal education must be accesible to anybodyãat any cost is flawed, so the whole points above are moot.ããWe don't need degreed people. We need qualified workers. Lots of jobs can beãdone by people who has never stepped into College and in fact they may makeãmore money in a number of cases. I'd make the point that we need to stopãpromoting the need for getting a degree and start promoting the idea thatãpeople should be learning a trade. Spain is #1 example of a country that keepsãoverproducing degreed people, won't stop producing degreed people, and as aãresult has lots of degreed people working at places were no degree is needed.ããAnd the argument gets better.ããLots of what you learn through the University you could learn yourself. This isthe era of Internet and public libraries. People does not go to College toã*learn*, they go to College to get a *paper* that says they passed someãcompliance test that makes them fit for certain role in Society. I am notãsymathetic to the idea that Joe the Gardener has to pay for some kid to get aãpaper which is only needed because we have artificially made that paperãpowerful.ããI reproduce a joke I once read in a web comic:ããProfessor: "Hey kid! May I interest you in some College education? We have aãspecial program. We give you all the learning resources you need, you get toãpick the subjects that interest you, we let you learn at your own speed and itãis all funded by the Government!"ããKid: "What's the catch?"ããProfessor: "This program does not give you a paper or title in the end"ããKid: "You have wasted my time, sir."ãã--ãgopher://gopher.richardfalken.com/1/richardfalkenãã---ã þ Synchronet þ Palantir BBS * palantirbbs.ddns.net * Pensacola, FLã

Re: Re: Y'all or Ya'll?ã By: Arelor to Margaerynne on Wed Jul 26 2023 01:52 pmãã > I'd argue that the education machine is a mean of production - since itã > produces professionals, at least in theory. Therefore any attempt from theã > Government or any authority structure to take over it using cohercitiveã > means is a Socialist action.ãã I think that's an interesting argument, and a good one to consider.ã I'm used to thinking of it as something like a public utility (which is also a critial resource that holds immense strategic value to its controller) butã viewing it through that lens is useful.ããã > When a Government becomes the primary source of funds for a corporation,ã > that corporation becomes a branch of the Government. See Spanish examplesã > such as ACS or Indra.ãã I'm thinking mostly about state schools, which are already explicitly the state's higher education arm.ãã Public universities are openly taxpayer-funded, so I'm not sure this one is a big shock.ããã > Now, the problem with forgiving loans or using tax money to fund educationã > is that you massify education (which is bad), you overproduce professionalsã > (whichis bad) and are sending the message that education may get asã > expensive as itã > wants to get, because the Government will cover for it (which is bad becauseã > you end up paying for it through the Government).ãã I think controlling (spiraling) tuition and bloated administration is also an important part of the problem, but I don't think either of those goals has to conflict with easing student loan debt. They can, especially if nothing is done to combat them after forgiving debt, but I hope there's someone out there smarter than Margaerynne Q. Nobody running the numbers.ããã > But I dare say the premise that formal education must be accesible toã > anybody at any cost is flawed, so the whole points above are moot.ã >ã > We don't need degreed people. We need qualified workers. Lots of jobs can beã > done by people who has never stepped into College and in fact they may makeã > more money in a number of cases. I'd make the point that we need to stopã > promoting the need for getting a degree and start promoting the idea thatã > people should be learning a trade. Spain is #1 example of a country thatã > keeps overproducing degreed people, won't stop producing degreed people, andã > as a result has lots of degreed people working at places were no degree isã > needed.ãã You definitely need a balance, and "college = success = the only path to prosperity" seems to thankfully be dying down amongst teenagers.ãã But changing course doesn't require abandoning people who have been caught in the flaws of the college-at-all-costs mindset.ããã > And the argument gets better.ã >ã > Lots of what you learn through the University you could learn yourself. Thisã > isthe era of Internet and public libraries. People does not go to College toã > *learn*, they go to College to get a *paper* that says they passed someã > compliance test that makes them fit for certain role in Society. I am notã > symathetic to the idea that Joe the Gardener has to pay for some kid to getã > a paper which is only needed because we have artificially made that paperã > powerful.ãã That's also a good discussion, but I think it varies by degree.ãã You /can/ spend four years learning rigorous mathematics yourself, but why notã benefit from professionals who came before you?ãã > I reproduce a joke I once read in a web comic:ã >ã > [SMBC joke snipped]ãã I think this is another part of the problem. Certain majors do benefit from a university atmosphere, certain ones can be done in a smaller college (or normal school), or entirely through self-study or a bootcamp.ããã I'd definitely be open to discussing this more, though. I'm admittedly very biased on this.ãã---ã þ Synchronet þ Palantir BBS * palantirbbs.ddns.net * Pensacola, FLã

Re: Re: Y'all or Ya'll?ã By: Margaerynne to Arelor on Thu Jul 27 2023 10:36 pmããã> You /can/ spend four years learning rigorous mathematics yourself, but whyãnot benefit from professionals who came before you?ããI'd buy more education myself if it was actual education instead of justãpapers.ããTHe problem is that when you buy formal education you are buying a programãsomebody designed which may not be what you want it to be. Add to it that theãgoal of the University is to raise more funds and you start seeing perverseãincentives.ããThe University is not going to teach you how to be an Engineer in three yearsãif they can split Engineering in modules they can sell separatedly and keep youyet moar years in it. This applies to both public and private Universities -ãbecause public UNiversities benefit from having students. End result is you getEngineering turned into a degree plus a master plus an universitary extensionãcourse plus a... you get the ideaããANd you end up loaded up with papers who tell the world how great you are butãyou don't know the difference between a carburettor and an IPN-500 beam becausenobody ever cared to show you EITHER.ããAlso known as the effect "I heve learnt more Electrical Engineering trying toãfix my home appliances with Internet tutorials than at college".ããThe whole premise of the model is flawed and we need to burn it down with aãflame thrower so we can wipe the ashes aside and rebuild.ããTHey had it figured it out in the middle ages already. If you wanted to becomeãan engineer, you got an Engineer to teach you and you assisted him as anãapprentice. THe resoult of ENgineering for a long time with a guy who knowsãEngineering is learning a lot of Engineering. Who would have guessed?ãã(And yes I am sore because the University here trashed the Equine Hospital andãnow the closest one is quite far away)ãã--ãgopher://gopher.richardfalken.com/1/richardfalkenãã---ã þ Synchronet þ Palantir BBS * palantirbbs.ddns.net * Pensacola, FLã

Re: Re: Y'all or Ya'll?ã By: Tracker1 to Hustler on Sun Jul 16 2023 12:00 amãã Tr> Yeah, kind of disgraceful that they spent all that money, and anã Tr> institution took it, just so they can work in a job that doesn't evenã Tr> require one to begin with. Shameful that the education system steersã Tr> people that way in order to better indoctrinate them all.ãã College is a "racket" like every thing else in this world. I get a kick out of the latest "Free College" kick these days. You won't grow a brain even if it it is free.ã---ã þ Synchronet þ Diamond Mine Online BBS - bbs.dmine.net:24 - Fredericksburg, VA USAã