Quoting Arelor to Nightfox <=-

Re: Intel: Once mighty, now falling?
By: Nightfox to All on Tue May 06 2025 09:54 pm

Not to say Intel is making bad stuff, but
it seems AMD has been fairly steadily popular with a lot of PC builders for several years.

Intel has actually been making bad stuff for a while, unless you don't consider CPUs that fry themselves on their own "bad". I think it is
13th and 14th generation, which is two generations of botched chips.

It wasn't actually bad hardware.

Primarily the 13th and 14th generation CPU's using the Raptor Lake
platform, and the issues were software related not actual hardware
issues. The problem stemmed from a microcode algorithm that caused
elevated operating voltages leading to CPU degradation and crashes.
Once they patched the code the problems went away.

Older AMD CPU's actually did have hardware issues causing them to
operate so hot that they would catch on fire and also fry the mobo.
Note that I said 'older'.

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Re: Intel: Once mighty, now f
By: Cougar428 to ARELOR on Thu May 15 2025 02:19 pm

Older AMD CPU's actually did have hardware issues causing them to operate so hot that they would catch on fire and also fry the mobo. Note that I said 'older'.

Funny coincidence. I'm re-watching "Halt and Catch Fire" while I'm reading this.

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poindexter FORTRAN wrote to Cougar428 <=-

Re: Intel: Once mighty, now f
By: Cougar428 to ARELOR on Thu May 15 2025 02:19 pm

Older AMD CPU's actually did have hardware issues causing them to operate so hot that they would catch on fire and also fry the mobo. Note that I said 'older'.

Funny coincidence. I'm re-watching "Halt and Catch Fire" while I'm
reading this.

I re-watched that a couple of years ago or so. Had forgotten how good
it was, great stuff!



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Re: Intel: Once mighty, now f
By: poindexter FORTRAN to Cougar428 on Thu May 15 2025 06:30 pm

Older AMD CPU's actually did have hardware issues causing them to operate
so hot that they would catch on fire and also fry the mobo. Note that I
said 'older'.

Funny coincidence. I'm re-watching "Halt and Catch Fire" while I'm reading this.

Such a great show.

Dang it, now I want to re-watch it.

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Re: Re: Intel: Once mighty, now f
By: Gamgee to poindexter FORTRAN on Thu May 15 2025 10:12 pm

Funny coincidence. I'm re-watching "Halt and Catch Fire" while I'm
reading this.

I re-watched that a couple of years ago or so. Had forgotten how good it was, great stuff!

I keep thinking I should keep watching that. I watched the first episode years ago and for some reason didn't continue watching it.

Nightfox

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Hello Codefenix,

16 May 25 10:41, you wrote to poindexter FORTRAN:

Re: Intel: Once mighty, now f
By: poindexter FORTRAN to Cougar428 on Thu May 15 2025 06:30 pm

Older AMD CPU's actually did have hardware issues causing them to
operate so hot that they would catch on fire and also fry the
mobo. Note that I said 'older'.

Funny coincidence. I'm re-watching "Halt and Catch Fire" while
I'm reading this.

Such a great show.

Dang it, now I want to re-watch it.

+1

luckily i have it on my plex!

ByEbYe
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Re: Intel: Once mighty, now f
By: Codefenix to poindexter FORTRAN on Fri May 16 2025 10:41 am

Such a great show.

Halt and Catch Fire was "just ok". I
wouldn't call it great. It's just that
there wasn't anything better with the
same subject matter. Same with that Mr.
Robot show. So many forced instances of
buzz words and computer jargon. It was
just OK.

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Codefenix wrote to poindexter FORTRAN <=-

Funny coincidence. I'm re-watching "Halt and Catch Fire" while I'm reading this.

Such a great show.

Dang it, now I want to re-watch it.

That show always makes me think "what if?"

I was working and living in San Francisco and Berkeley at the time,
first in gaming and utilities and later in multimedia authoring. San
Francisco felt like the place to be, with tech, culture, food, night
life and a history. I'd heard of Netscape, even toured their offices
when I was building out server rooms and cable plants - our vendor
wanted to show off their work. I knew they were doing something
exciting, but I was living in San Francisco, and who'd want to work in
Mountain View?





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Re: Intel: Once mighty, now f
By: Cougar428 to ARELOR on Thu May 15 2025 02:19 pm

It wasn't actually bad hardware.

Primarily the 13th and 14th generation CPU's using the Raptor Lake
platform, and the issues were software related not actual hardware
issues. The problem stemmed from a microcode algorithm that caused
elevated operating voltages leading to CPU degradation and crashes.
Once they patched the code the problems went away.

That is semantics.

If a regular consumer bought a PolyStation 23 and it caught fire during a normal operation, the regular consumer would think it is a hardware problem, even if it was caused by some BIOS bug. Low level software, firmware and the like are so tightly tied to the hardware that you may as well say it is an integral part of the hardware appliance you bought (and got toasted).

While technically correct, saying it is not a hardware problem and that it can be fixed by patching comes across as telling people they can fix a motherboard issue by unsoldering some EPROM and soldering an updated replacement, and therefore their motherboard is perfectly fine and faultless.

I don't buy it. We are already giving the IT industry too much leeway to produce crappy products. Let them own their failures.


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Quoting Arelor to Cougar428 <=-

Re: Intel: Once mighty, now f
By: Cougar428 to ARELOR on Thu May 15 2025 02:19 pm

It wasn't actually bad hardware.

Primarily the 13th and 14th generation CPU's using the Raptor Lake
platform, and the issues were software related not actual hardware
issues. The problem stemmed from a microcode algorithm that caused
elevated operating voltages leading to CPU degradation and crashes.
Once they patched the code the problems went away.

That is semantics.

If a regular consumer bought a PolyStation 23 and it caught fire
during a normal operation, the regular consumer would think it is a hardware problem, even if it was caused by some BIOS bug. Low level software, firmware and the like are so tightly tied to the hardware
that you may as well say it is an integral part of the hardware
appliance you bought (and got toasted).
While technically correct, saying it is not a hardware problem and
that it can be fixed by patching comes across as telling people they
can fix a motherboard issue by unsoldering some EPROM and soldering an updated replacement, and therefore their motherboard is perfectly fine
and faultless.

I think the fix was to download the update and reboot the system. Of
course I may be wrong about how it was done, but you update drivers for
different hardware all the time. At every OS update.

You can explain it any way you like, but the hardware was not the
fault. If you're minds made up, then you're mind is made up. People
'think' alot of things. Doesn't actually make them true. I think you're
original post was about the defective 13th and 14th gen Intel CPU's. So
it is 'technically correct' - It wasn't a hardware problem, it was a
software problem. Had nothing to do with removing and replacing
components, just a flash update.

I don't buy it. We are already giving the IT industry too much leeway
to produce crappy products. Let them own their failures.

I would be happy to let them own their failure, like I said AMD chips
operated at such a high frequency to one up the competition that they
did actually catch fire. I guess if you never had it happen to you, you
would not appreciate the chaos.

As usual - just my opinion. Thanks for your reply.

Have a great day Arelor!

... I was on a roll till I slipped on the butter.

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Re: Intel: Once mighty, now f
By: phigan to Codefenix on Sun May 18 2025 08:03 am

Halt and Catch Fire was "just ok". I
wouldn't call it great. It's just that
there wasn't anything better with the
same subject matter. Same with that Mr.
Robot show. So many forced instances of
buzz words and computer jargon. It was
just OK.

I thought it handled the jargon just fine, not dwelling on any particular terms or concepts. It was more about the characters, their personalities, struggles, ambitions, and relationships between each other.

Never watched Mr. Robot.

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Re: Intel: Once mighty, now f
By: Codefenix to phigan on Mon May 19 2025 09:10 am

I thought it handled the jargon just fine, not dwelling on any particular te or concepts. It was more about the characters, their personalities, struggle ambitions, and relationships between each other.

Totally get that, but when computers are a big part of the plot, you'd think you'd want to get the shit correct. You don't take a disk out of a Commodore and stick it in a PC to run the same program. Am I expecting too much?

There was this one show that was way more ridiculous about going into people's brains after they're dead... Every real tech thing/concept/action they showed was real, which only made it better in my eyes. By real tech I mean what actually exists vs the brain invading chamber. And by 'was real' I mean they didn't make shit up or say something was what it wasn't. They showed real hardware and used it for what it could do and explained its limitations realisticly. It was amazing.

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Re: Intel: Once mighty, now f
By: phigan to Codefenix on Mon May 19 2025 10:50 am

Totally get that, but when computers are a big part of the plot, you'd think you'd want to get the shit correct. You don't take a disk out of a Commodore and stick it in a PC to run the same program. Am I expecting too much?

I haven't watched all of Halt & Catch Fire, but I'm thinking of finally watching it. But that reminds me of the movie Independence Day (1996) where they were able to connect to the alien UFO's computer with a MacBook and deliver a computer virus..

Nightfox

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Re: Intel: Once mighty, now f
By: Cougar428 to ARELOR on Mon May 19 2025 08:41 am

I think the fix was to download the update and reboot the system. Of
course I may be wrong about how it was done, but you update drivers for
different hardware all the time. At every OS update.

First of all, we are not talking about a driver. We are talking about a bellow OS operation so it is a serious affair even if it seems clicky-clicky.

Second, you may upgrade your drivers all month log, but how many upgrades are designed to prevent your hardware from catching fire?

I check the changelogs of the stuff I run quite often and I must say updates aimed at preventing catastrophical failure exist in the realm of astronomically unfrequent events.

Seriously, if I was running production on a specific CPU model and it caught fire mid-operation, and the Intel representative told me that it is ok because it is not a hardware problem, that it only takes a UEFI update to fix, I would shove a whole rack full of servers up that guy's ass.




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Cougar428 wrote to ARELOR <=-

I don't buy it. We are already giving the IT industry too much leeway
to produce crappy products. Let them own their failures.

I would be happy to let them own their failure, like I said AMD chips
operated at such a high frequency to one up the competition that they
did actually catch fire. I guess if you never had it happen to you,
you would not appreciate the chaos.

I supported Dell systems for a bunch of years. We started seeing
failures with video failures on one model of laptop. Turned out the
system put out enough heat to make a video component on the motherboard
fail. Dell's solution, rather than re-engineering the existing
motherboards and sending replacements, was to put our a BIOS update
that set the fan blowing at a much higher (and more annoying) speed. We
were large enough that they sent us a shipment of replacement systems
with re-engineered motherboards to swap some of them out, but we still
had a lot of systems blowing hot air.

Those were bad times for Dell customers. About the same time, Dell
Optiplexes began popping capacitors because of heat buildup. They got
really good at swapping out motherboards.



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Codefenix wrote to phigan <=-

I thought it handled the jargon just fine, not dwelling on any
particular terms or concepts. It was more about the characters, their personalities, struggles, ambitions, and relationships between each
other.

I thought that the use of time jumps helped to solidify your connection
to the characters. At the end of season 4, you really felt like you'd
been along for a much longer ride with the characters that 4 years.

I really connected with the characters, probably because I lived
alongside some of those events.



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Quoting Arelor to Cougar428 <=-

Re: Intel: Once mighty, now f
By: Cougar428 to ARELOR on Mon May 19 2025 08:41 am

I think the fix was to download the update and reboot the system. Of
course I may be wrong about how it was done, but you update drivers for
different hardware all the time. At every OS update.

First of all, we are not talking about a driver. We are talking about
a bellow OS operation so it is a serious affair even if it seems clicky-clicky.
Second, you may upgrade your drivers all month log, but how many
upgrades are designed to prevent your hardware from catching fire?
I check the changelogs of the stuff I run quite often and I must say updates aimed at preventing catastrophical failure exist in the realm
of astronomically unfrequent events.
Seriously, if I was running production on a specific CPU model and it caught fire mid-operation, and the Intel representative told me that
it is ok because it is not a hardware problem, that it only takes a
UEFI update to fix, I would shove a whole rack full of servers up that guy's ass.

I get your point. Just like AMD, they tried to one up the competition
and push the silicon too far past its limits. Intel is not the lone ranger
in this regard.

I understand your reasoning. People are angry they had problems with
their CPU/Mobo. However, that doesn't change the fact that it was a
micro code issue, not a hardware issue. Your whole line of reasoning is
subjective. Sometimes you have to be objective, step back and look at
the big picture. Yeah, your mad and angry that Intel hardware you paid
good money for screwed up your system. But the underlying cause was not
hardware, it was Intel trying to get their hardware to be better than
the competition. With the code.

Not assuming you had one of these, just stating.

You have a great day Arelor!


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