Re: Opinion on Pascal
By: Darkages to All on Wed Nov 16 2016 04:35 am
What are you opinions on Pascal as a programming language. Like the confusin
syntax that I can never get to grips with.
Regards,
Tristan B. Kildaire (Deavmi)
E-mail: deavmi@darkagesbbs.com
I've only messed around with Pascal (FPC specifically) briefly. Can't say I've
done anything besides type in a few small listings. I like the syntax and the language in general and wish I had more time to do a project using it. It's one
of those languages I remember reading about as a kid and thought it looked good
(syntax wise). I only knew basic at the time and this looked like a more powerful basic-done-right. Just never got far with it unfortunately.
Anyway, I don't find the syntax confusing at all. There's probably a little bit
of an adjustment if you're background is in c-like languages. But nothing Earth
shattering.
Are you using it for any projects currently?
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Re: Opinion on Pascal
By: Darkages to All on Wed Nov 16 2016 04:35 am
What are you opinions on Pascal as a programming language. Like the confusin
syntax that I can never get to grips with.
Regards,
Tristan B. Kildaire (Deavmi)
E-mail: deavmi@darkagesbbs.com
I've only messed around with Pascal (FPC specifically) briefly. Can't say I've
done anything besides type in a few small listings. I like the syntax and the language in general and wish I had more time to do a project using it. It's one
of those languages I remember reading about as a kid and thought it looked good
(syntax wise). I only knew basic at the time and this looked like a more powerful basic-done-right. Just never got far with it unfortunately.
Anyway, I don't find the syntax confusing at all. There's probably a little bit
of an adjustment if you're background is in c-like languages. But nothing Earth
shattering.
Are you using it for any projects currently?
------------------------------------------------------------------
CDP
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The Retro Room - http://forums.delphiforums.com/retroroom ------------------------------------------------------------------
---
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Sampsa wrote to Vk3jed <=-ãã Sa> I personally don't like Pascal, the only reason it became such a bigã Sa> deal back in the 80s/early 90s was that it's REALLY easy to write aã Sa> compiler for it.ãã Sa> Also everything else about it is just kinda crappy, it's a languageã Sa> designed to teach comp sci students how to build a compiler, basically.ããWell, interesting bit of history, but can you be more specific, and what do youãlike in a language?ãã Sa> We did that exact exercise in year 3 of my CS degree, built a Pascalã Sa> compiler for this hypothetical machine's CPU's assembler.ããI'm guessing that would be a fairly standard exercise for a CS student in theirãlatter years. ãã Sa> Even Niklaus Wirt*h went on to produce two other languages that heã Sa> considered the "real world" implementations of a Pascal-like language:ã Sa> Modula-2 and Oberon (Oberon is actually sort of nice to be honest butã Sa> good luck doing anything with it).ããModula-2 I have heard of, but not Oberon.ããã Vk> I never found it confusing, and TP had some neat tricks that could saveã Vk> a bit of code. Now to find some time to relearn, I'd like to writeã Vk> some more modern Pascal code. :)ãã Sa> TP wasn't confusing, but it sure as hell was unportable. Remember SWAG?ããNo, I don't, actually. But yes, I would agree somewhat unportable. However, Iãonce did manage to port a Morse practice program that I wrote from the DOSãversion of TP to CP/M. Most of the code went straight over. There were twoãmain parts that needed some inline Z80 assembler that were machine specific forãthe target machine. They were the tone generation and the character timingãloops. The CP/M version needed special functions and procedures written inãinline assembler (which I got a friend to do, as it was his Microbee that I wasãporting the program to) to simulate the built instructions of the DOS version. ãWe did release both the DOS and CP/M versions (with porting instructions forãother CP/M machines) to the public domain around 25 years ago, but I haven'tãseen a trace of it since. ãã Sa> Like 50%+ of that was just Pascal function/procedure wrappers aroundã Sa> inline Intel 8086 assembler.ãã Sa> Pascal was never a good language, it was a "good enough" language inã Sa> the 80s/90s with the Borland variants but I really hope it would justã Sa> die a dignified death now.ããWell, it did what I wanted at the time. :)ãã Sa> So would Wirth, and he invented the damn thing lol :).ããLOL.ã... When Eve arrived, this was no longer a man's world.ã--- MultiMail/Win32 v0.49ã þ Synchronet þ Freeway BBS in Bendigo, Australia.ã
Vk3jed wrote to Sampsa <=-ããã Sa> I personally don't like Pascal, the only reason it became such a bigã Sa> deal back in the 80s/early 90s was that it's REALLY easy to write aã Sa> compiler for it.ãã Sa> Also everything else about it is just kinda crappy, it's a languageã Sa> designed to teach comp sci students how to build a compiler, basically.ãã Vk> Well, interesting bit of history, but can you be more specific, andã Vk> what do you like in a language?ããWell, I like most "modern" languages but at the moment my favourite isãdefinitely Python: It's VERY easy to pick up but scales to HUGE appsãif you want it, it's hard to state all the reasons WHY I like it but Iãguess some of the main ones would be:ãã - Nice, clean syntax (Python almost reads like pseudo-code)ãã - Multi-paradigm (You can write basically imperitative code thatã looks like C/Pascal, heavily OOP-style code a la Java or evenã almost functional programming style stuff [of which I'm not aã big fan])ãã - Large, modular and uniform standard library (Python has more orã less everything you can think of in the basic API, but you don'tã HAVE to know all of it to work with the language)ãã - Popularity. Sounds stupid, but if an otherwise awesome languageã is used by 500 devs world-wide, you're not going to get a lot ofã new stuff up on GitHub to use. For example I think there are THREEã different FTN processing libraries (admittedly all flawed) forã Python.ããããã Sa> We did that exact exercise in year 3 of my CS degree, built a Pascalã Sa> compiler for this hypothetical machine's CPU's assembler.ãã Vk> I'm guessing that would be a fairly standard exercise for a CS studentã Vk> in their latter years.ããYeah, definitely, everyone who took a "real" CS course would have taken oneãon compilers and the one a lot people end up implementing is Pascal - becauseãit's just so damn easy to implemnet a Pascal compiler.ããAnd yeah, it was satisfying to see your for loop turn into a bunch of LOADs,ãSAVEs and JUMPs. But I wouldn't have wanted to write that compiler inãPascal :)ãããã Sa> Even Niklaus Wirt*h went on to produce two other languages that heã Sa> considered the "real world" implementations of a Pascal-like language:ã Sa> Modula-2 and Oberon (Oberon is actually sort of nice to be honest butã Sa> good luck doing anything with it).ãã Vk> Modula-2 I have heard of, but not Oberon.ããOberon is quite cool - it's both a programming language and a whole desktopãUI, sort of like SmallTalk. I think it still boots in VMware..Have a look:ããhttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oberon_(operating_system)ããããã Vk> I never found it confusing, and TP had some neat tricks that could saveã Vk> a bit of code. Now to find some time to relearn, I'd like to writeã Vk> some more modern Pascal code. :)ãã Sa> TP wasn't confusing, but it sure as hell was unportable. Remember SWAG?ãã Vk> No, I don't, actually. But yes, I would agree somewhat unportable.ããSWAG was awesome, you could find a TP unit in there to do basicallyãANYTHING (it was like the CPAN [perl] or pip/distutils [Python] for TP)ããAlso, somewhat is somewhat of an understatement :)ãããã Sa> Pascal was never a good language, it was a "good enough" language inã Sa> the 80s/90s with the Borland variants but I really hope it would justã Sa> die a dignified death now.ãã Vk> Well, it did what I wanted at the time. :)ããSame here. But once I learned C I dropped it entirely and then in 1996ãmoved on to Java.ããNow I code exclusively in Python (unless I have to do something weirdãand platform specific, then I write a small C library and import itãinto my Python app using ctypes).ããSampsaããã... MultiMail, the new multi-platform, multi-format offline reader!ã--- MultiMail/Darwin v0.49ã þ Synchronet þ B4BBS = London, England - b4bbs.sampsa.com (port 23/tcp)ã
Sampsa wrote to Vk3jed <=-ãã Sa> Well, I like most "modern" languages but at the moment my favourite isã Sa> definitely Python: It's VERY easy to pick up but scales to HUGE appsã Sa> if you want it, it's hard to state all the reasons WHY I like it but Iã Sa> guess some of the main ones would be:ããI've heard a lot of good things about Python, haven't got round to lookingãclosely myself yet. From your description, there are a lot of good reasons toãgive it a go, as well as Python being supported by Mystic. :)ãã Sa> Yeah, definitely, everyone who took a "real" CS course would have takenã Sa> one on compilers and the one a lot people end up implementing is Pascalã Sa> - because it's just so damn easy to implemnet a Pascal compiler.ããI see. :-)ãã Sa> And yeah, it was satisfying to see your for loop turn into a bunch ofã Sa> LOADs, SAVEs and JUMPs. But I wouldn't have wanted to write thatã Sa> compiler in Pascal :)ãã;)ãã Sa> Even Niklaus Wirt*h went on to produce two other languages that heã Sa> considered the "real world" implementations of a Pascal-like language:ã Sa> Modula-2 and Oberon (Oberon is actually sort of nice to be honest butã Sa> good luck doing anything with it).ãã Vk> Modula-2 I have heard of, but not Oberon.ãã Sa> Oberon is quite cool - it's both a programming language and a wholeã Sa> desktop UI, sort of like SmallTalk. I think it still boots inã Sa> VMware..Have a look:ãã Sa> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oberon_(operating_system)ããAhh, OKãã Vk> I never found it confusing, and TP had some neat tricks that could saveã Vk> a bit of code. Now to find some time to relearn, I'd like to writeã Vk> some more modern Pascal code. :)ãã Sa> TP wasn't confusing, but it sure as hell was unportable. Remember SWAG?ãã Vk> No, I don't, actually. But yes, I would agree somewhat unportable.ãã Sa> SWAG was awesome, you could find a TP unit in there to do basicallyã Sa> ANYTHING (it was like the CPAN [perl] or pip/distutils [Python] for TP)ããAhh, I see. Most of my TP coding took place under TP3.x, before units cameãalong. :)ãã Sa> Also, somewhat is somewhat of an understatement :)ãã Vk> Well, it did what I wanted at the time. :)ãã Sa> Same here. But once I learned C I dropped it entirely and then in 1996ã Sa> moved on to Java.ããYeah, I never got to learn enough C for it to be useful.ãã Sa> Now I code exclusively in Python (unless I have to do something weirdã Sa> and platform specific, then I write a small C library and import itã Sa> into my Python app using ctypes).ããI'll have to take a look at Python. :)ãããã... Should I weed the lawn or say it's a garden?ã--- MultiMail/Win32 v0.49ã þ Synchronet þ Freeway BBS in Bendigo, Australia.ã
Christopher Perrault wrote to Vk3jed <=-ãã CP> You're not the only one. I'd love to do up a project in FPC.ã CP> Unfortunately I've been focused on admin related stuff as of late andã CP> get little time to do any coding at all (I still need to finishã CP> learning Python).ãã CP> Pascal is further down the list, but one of these days...ããAnd Python is on my list of things to do. :)ããã... If you do a favor, forget it. If you receive a favor, remember it.ã--- MultiMail/Win32 v0.49ã þ Synchronet þ Freeway BBS in Bendigo, Australia.ã
Vk3jed wrote to Sampsa <=-ãã Sa> SWAG was awesome, you could find a TP unit in there to do basicallyã Sa> ANYTHING (it was like the CPAN [perl] or pip/distutils [Python] for TP)ãã Vk> Ahh, I see. Most of my TP coding took place under TP3.x, before unitsã Vk> came along. :)ããThe "units" thing was part of the reason Wirth develped Modula-2 -ã"separate compilation" (i.e. just compiling the bits you've change and thenãlinking all the object code) was a Big Deal back when 300 people would shareãa single VAX, it saved a LOT of CPU of time.ããI remember working on a crazy development system at Nokia (the Networksãsection, not mobile phones) section back in the mid-90s:ããYou'd develop your code in TNSDL (a subset of SDL, this graphicalãflowcharting thing that you could weirdly enough write in text) and C,ãsubmitting the compilation job (a VMS DCL shell script) to a queue on theãcentral VAX cluster, and then go for a 3 hour break.ããAfter 3 hours or so, you'd either get a compile error (missing semi-colon?ãFix it and recompile for 3 hours again lol) or a binary blob.ããYou'd then download said binary blob, write it to a floppy disk, take itãto THE ACTUAL FAKE DX200 PHONE EXCHANGE in the basement, type some obscureãcommands at the console and watch a whole room full of blinking lights andãelectrical relays reboot itself. It was quite spectacular.ããThe code would then usually run for roughly 3 milliseconds, crash, printãout a hex dump of <something>, that you'd take to the gurus upstairs toãdecipher.ããThe next morning they'd tell you to change line X of file Y.ãã24 hour+ code + compile + test cycle. With my own office (door and everything):ããBEST JOB EVER!ãããVk> Yeah, I never got to learn enough C for it to be useful.ããWell unless you're writing freaking device drivers or code for a spacecraftãthen it's hard to get C to do useful things in any reasonable amount ofãtime (see example above).ããAnd even for the spacecraft I'd probably use Ada since with C you'd probablyãend up dereferencing some pointer wrong and your $30 billion space craft nowãcrashes into the Sun ;Pããã Sa> Now I code exclusively in Python (unless I have to do something weirdã Sa> and platform specific, then I write a small C library and import itã Sa> into my Python app using ctypes).ãã Vk> I'll have to take a look at Python. :)ããYup, please do. I'm still on version 2.7 (the jump to v3 changes the syntaxãand like all developers [well, I'm more or a dilettante nowadays than aãreal dev] are lazy, so I haven't migrated yet).ããTheir own tutorial is pretty decent, picked up the language in like aãweek from it: https://docs.python.org/3/tutorial/ããSampsaãã... MultiMail, the new multi-platform, multi-format offline reader!ã--- MultiMail/Darwin v0.49ã þ Synchronet þ B4BBS = London, England - b4bbs.sampsa.com (port 23/tcp)ã
Chris wrote to Darkages <=-
I've only messed around with Pascal (FPC specifically) briefly. Can't say I've done anything besides type in a few small listings. I like the syntax and the language in general and wish I had more time to do a project using it. It's one of those languages I remember reading about as a kid and thought it looked good (syntax wise). I only knew basic at the time and this looked like a more powerful basic-done-right. Just never got far with it unfortunately.
I used to enjoy writing Pascal code when I was in university. Pity I can't easily read any of my old floppies (anyone have a 5.25" drive? ;) ).
Anyway, I don't find the syntax confusing at all. There's probably a little bit of an adjustment if you're background is in c-like
languages. But nothing Earth shattering.
I never found it confusing, and TP had some neat tricks that could save a bit of code. Now to find some time to relearn, I'd like to write some more modern
Pascal code. :)
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Vk3jed wrote to Chris <=-
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Chris wrote to Darkages <=-
I've only messed around with Pascal (FPC specifically) briefly. Can't say I've done anything besides type in a few small listings. I like the syntax and the language in general and wish I had more time to do a project using it. It's one of those languages I remember reading about as a kid and thought it looked good (syntax wise). I only knew basic at the time and this looked like a more powerful basic-done-right. Just never got far with it unfortunately.
I used to enjoy writing Pascal code when I was in university. Pity I can't easily read any of my old floppies (anyone have a 5.25" drive? ;) ).
Anyway, I don't find the syntax confusing at all. There's probably a little bit of an adjustment if you're background is in c-like
languages. But nothing Earth shattering.
I personally don't like Pascal, the only reason it became such a big deal back in the 80s/early 90s was that it's REALLY easy to write a compiler for it.
Also everything else about it is just kinda crappy, it's a language designed to teach comp sci students how to build a compiler, basically.
We did that exact exercise in year 3 of my CS degree, built a Pascal compiler for this hypothetical machine's CPU's assembler.
Even Niklaus Wirt*h went on to produce two other languages that he considered the "real world" implementations of a Pascal-like language: Modula-2 and Oberon (Oberon is actually sort of nice to be honest but good luck doing anything with it).
I never found it confusing, and TP had some neat tricks that could save a bit of code. Now to find some time to relearn, I'd like to write
some more modern Pascal code. :)
TP wasn't confusing, but it sure as hell was unportable. Remember SWAG?
Like 50%+ of that was just Pascal function/procedure wrappers around
inline Intel 8086 assembler.
Pascal was never a good language, it was a "good enough" language in the 80s/90s with the Borland variants but I really hope it would just die a dignified death now.
So would Wirth, and he invented the damn thing lol :).
Sampsa
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Also everything else about it is just kinda crappy, it's a language
designed to teach comp sci students how to build a compiler, >basically.
Vk3jed wrote to Chris <=-
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Chris wrote to Darkages <=-
I've only messed around with Pascal (FPC specifically) briefly. Can't say I've done anything besides type in a few small listings. I like the syntax and the language in general and wish I had more time to do a project using it. It's one of those languages I remember reading about as a kid and thought it looked good (syntax wise). I only knew basic at the time and this looked like a more powerful basic-done-right. Just never got far with it unfortunately.
I used to enjoy writing Pascal code when I was in university. Pity I can't easily read any of my old floppies (anyone have a 5.25" drive? ;) ).
Anyway, I don't find the syntax confusing at all. There's probably a little bit of an adjustment if you're background is in c-like
languages. But nothing Earth shattering.
I personally don't like Pascal, the only reason it became such a big deal back in the 80s/early 90s was that it's REALLY easy to write a compiler for it.
Also everything else about it is just kinda crappy, it's a language designed to teach comp sci students how to build a compiler, basically.
We did that exact exercise in year 3 of my CS degree, built a Pascal compiler for this hypothetical machine's CPU's assembler.
Even Niklaus Wirt*h went on to produce two other languages that he considered the "real world" implementations of a Pascal-like language: Modula-2 and Oberon (Oberon is actually sort of nice to be honest but good luck doing anything with it).
I never found it confusing, and TP had some neat tricks that could save a bit of code. Now to find some time to relearn, I'd like to write
some more modern Pascal code. :)
TP wasn't confusing, but it sure as hell was unportable. Remember SWAG?
Like 50%+ of that was just Pascal function/procedure wrappers around
inline Intel 8086 assembler.
Pascal was never a good language, it was a "good enough" language in the 80s/90s with the Borland variants but I really hope it would just die a dignified death now.
So would Wirth, and he invented the damn thing lol :).
Sampsa
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Sampsa wrote to Vk3jed <=-
I personally don't like Pascal, the only reason it became such a big deal back in the 80s/early 90s was that it's REALLY easy to write a compiler for it.
Also everything else about it is just kinda crappy, it's a language designed to teach comp sci students how to build a compiler, basically.
Well, interesting bit of history, but can you be more specific, and what do you
like in a language?
We did that exact exercise in year 3 of my CS degree, built a Pascal compiler for this hypothetical machine's CPU's assembler.
I'm guessing that would be a fairly standard exercise for a CS student in their
latter years.
Even Niklaus Wirt*h went on to produce two other languages that he considered the "real world" implementations of a Pascal-like language: Modula-2 and Oberon (Oberon is actually sort of nice to be honest but good luck doing anything with it).
Modula-2 I have heard of, but not Oberon.
I never found it confusing, and TP had some neat tricks that could save a bit of code. Now to find some time to relearn, I'd like to write
some more modern Pascal code. :)
TP wasn't confusing, but it sure as hell was unportable. Remember SWAG?
No, I don't, actually. But yes, I would agree somewhat unportable. However, I
once did manage to port a Morse practice program that I wrote from the DOS version of TP to CP/M. Most of the code went straight over. There were two main parts that needed some inline Z80 assembler that were machine specific for
the target machine. They were the tone generation and the character timing loops. The CP/M version needed special functions and procedures written in inline assembler (which I got a friend to do, as it was his Microbee that I was
porting the program to) to simulate the built instructions of the DOS version.
We did release both the DOS and CP/M versions (with porting instructions for other CP/M machines) to the public domain around 25 years ago, but I haven't seen a trace of it since.
Like 50%+ of that was just Pascal function/procedure wrappers around inline Intel 8086 assembler.
Pascal was never a good language, it was a "good enough" language in
the 80s/90s with the Borland variants but I really hope it would just die a dignified death now.
Well, it did what I wanted at the time. :)
So would Wirth, and he invented the damn thing lol :).
LOL.
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Vk3jed wrote to Sampsa <=-
I personally don't like Pascal, the only reason it became such a big deal back in the 80s/early 90s was that it's REALLY easy to write a compiler for it.
Also everything else about it is just kinda crappy, it's a language designed to teach comp sci students how to build a compiler, basically.
Well, interesting bit of history, but can you be more specific, and
what do you like in a language?
Well, I like most "modern" languages but at the moment my favourite is definitely Python: It's VERY easy to pick up but scales to HUGE apps
if you want it, it's hard to state all the reasons WHY I like it but I
guess some of the main ones would be:
- Nice, clean syntax (Python almost reads like pseudo-code)
- Multi-paradigm (You can write basically imperitative code that
looks like C/Pascal, heavily OOP-style code a la Java or even
almost functional programming style stuff [of which I'm not a
big fan])
- Large, modular and uniform standard library (Python has more or
less everything you can think of in the basic API, but you don't
HAVE to know all of it to work with the language)
- Popularity. Sounds stupid, but if an otherwise awesome language
is used by 500 devs world-wide, you're not going to get a lot of
new stuff up on GitHub to use. For example I think there are THREE
different FTN processing libraries (admittedly all flawed) for
Python.
We did that exact exercise in year 3 of my CS degree, built a Pascal compiler for this hypothetical machine's CPU's assembler.
I'm guessing that would be a fairly standard exercise for a CS student in their latter years.
Yeah, definitely, everyone who took a "real" CS course would have taken one on compilers and the one a lot people end up implementing is Pascal - because it's just so damn easy to implemnet a Pascal compiler.
And yeah, it was satisfying to see your for loop turn into a bunch of LOADs, SAVEs and JUMPs. But I wouldn't have wanted to write that compiler in
Pascal :)
Even Niklaus Wirt*h went on to produce two other languages that he considered the "real world" implementations of a Pascal-like language: Modula-2 and Oberon (Oberon is actually sort of nice to be honest but good luck doing anything with it).
Modula-2 I have heard of, but not Oberon.
Oberon is quite cool - it's both a programming language and a whole desktop UI, sort of like SmallTalk. I think it still boots in VMware..Have a look:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oberon_(operating_system)
I never found it confusing, and TP had some neat tricks that could save a bit of code. Now to find some time to relearn, I'd like to write
some more modern Pascal code. :)
TP wasn't confusing, but it sure as hell was unportable. Remember SWAG?
No, I don't, actually. But yes, I would agree somewhat unportable.
SWAG was awesome, you could find a TP unit in there to do basically
ANYTHING (it was like the CPAN [perl] or pip/distutils [Python] for TP)
Also, somewhat is somewhat of an understatement :)
Pascal was never a good language, it was a "good enough" language in
the 80s/90s with the Borland variants but I really hope it would just die a dignified death now.
Well, it did what I wanted at the time. :)
Same here. But once I learned C I dropped it entirely and then in 1996
moved on to Java.
Now I code exclusively in Python (unless I have to do something weird
and platform specific, then I write a small C library and import it
into my Python app using ctypes).
Sampsa
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Re: Re: Opinion on Pascal
By: Vk3jed to Chris on Thu Nov 24 2016 09:11 pm
I never found it confusing, and TP had some neat tricks that could save a bit of code. Now to find some time to relearn, I'd like to write some more
modern Pascal code. :)
You're not the only one. I'd love to do up a project in FPC. Unfortunately I've
been focused on admin related stuff as of late and get little time to do any coding at all (I still need to finish learning Python).
Pascal is further down the list, but one of these days...
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Re: Re: Opinion on Pascal
By: Deavmi to Vk3jed on Fri Nov 25 2016 05:40 pm
Inline assembler? Is that when you include assembly code within the
Pascal program (which I am aware you can do)
Yes. I remember the OS-9 Pascal compilor having this option as well as the C compiler. I'm assuming most implementations probably have that option, but I doubt it get's uses as much today with today's technology.
Back in the 8-bit days it made more sense to write the more intensive routines
in ASM.
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Re: Re: Opinion on Pascal
By: Deavmi to Sampsa on Fri Nov 25 2016 05:38 pm
Pascal was never a good language, it was a "good enough" language in the 80s/90s with the Borland variants but I really hope it would just die a dignified death now.
So would Wirth, and he invented the damn thing lol :).
Sampsa
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So would Wirth, and he invented the damn thing lol .
That's not nice.
He still contributed to CS. And why wish death on anyone like him?
I think you may have misread that. I don't think he was wishing death on Niklaus Wirth. He was wishing death on Pascal and saying that Wirth probably wishes it were dead too.
I think...
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Deavmi wrote to Sampsa <=-ãã > binary blobã De> What's a binary blob?ããBasically in this context, executable machine code.ãã.COM files on DOS are basically just binary blobs, a bunch of binaryãmachine code that gets loaded into a fixed address in memory and DOSãthen jumps to that address to execute a program.ãã.EXE files have a little preamble that says how to set up the code/dataãsegments etc and where to jump to start the program.ããMost modern exectuable format (ELF etc, whatever Windows uses etc) areãlike .EXE files - little structured preamble followed by the code etc.ããBut I also use it to mean things like writing Pascal records out straightãto disk - which is really stupid nowadays, use some kind of standard formatãlike JSON etc, don't just dump a data structure to disk as is.ããOK, if you're dealing with like HUGE amounts of records then fine, I canãunderstand not wanting to parse the stuff but at that point you shouldãprobably be using some kind of database system anyway.ããSampsaãã---ã þ Synchronet þ B4BBS = London, England - b4bbs.sampsa.com (port 23/tcp)ã
Deavmi wrote to Sampsa <=-
binary blob
What's a binary blob?
Basically in this context, executable machine code.
.COM files on DOS are basically just binary blobs, a bunch of binary
machine code that gets loaded into a fixed address in memory and DOS
then jumps to that address to execute a program.
.EXE files have a little preamble that says how to set up the code/data segments etc and where to jump to start the program.
Most modern exectuable format (ELF etc, whatever Windows uses etc) are
like .EXE files - little structured preamble followed by the code etc.
But I also use it to mean things like writing Pascal records out straight
to disk - which is really stupid nowadays, use some kind of standard format like JSON etc, don't just dump a data structure to disk as is.
OK, if you're dealing with like HUGE amounts of records then fine, I can understand not wanting to parse the stuff but at that point you should probably be using some kind of database system anyway.
Sampsa
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Re: Re: Opinion on Pascal
By: Deavmi to Chris on Sat Nov 26 2016 11:20 am
Oh okay. I guess you can wish death on something if it ain't good. But don't forget it atleast. :)
True that. I try not to wish death on anyone (I have about a 90% success rate
there).
But I wish death on products and trends all the time lol.
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Re: Re: Opinion on Pascal
By: Deavmi to Chris on Sat Nov 26 2016 11:20 am
To make sure that they executed exactly what you wanted? Rather than the doings of abstract Pascal code which you don't know how it will do the task.
I don't have enought experience with it to know. The main reason I've heard for people using inline asm, whether in c or pascal, was performance based. I suppose there are other reasons as you mentioned, I've just never heard them mentioned before.
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On 2016-11-28 06:11 AM, Chris wrote:"drawn out"
Re: Re: Opinion on PascalYeah, I think just the fine grained access to specific instructions
By: Deavmi to Chris on Sat Nov 26 2016 11:20 am
To make sure that they executed exactly what you wanted? Ratherthan the
doings of abstract Pascal code which you don't know how it will dothe task.
I don't have enought experience with it to know. The main reason I've
heard
for people using inline asm, whether in c or pascal, was performance
based. I
suppose there are other reasons as you mentioned, I've just never
heard them
mentioned before.
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allow for you to write more specifically what must be done and how
whereas C could compile to code that does multiple checks on things
before it executes the specific thing you wanted (however with only C
you cannot control this drawn-out process).
Re: Re: Opinion on Pascal
By: Deavmi to Chris on Mon Nov 28 2016 07:43 pm
Well for me, if something is a fad, it needs no wishing - it will go
away but as for the way technology is going like with IoT - it ain't a
fad and I do want it to go away.
yeah, but you know fads always come back. sometimes they are in disguise but still, they come back. freaking bell bottoms.
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Deavmi wrote to Mro <=-ãã De> I guess so. But how would IoT re-appear in disguise or is it the biggerã De> picture of privacy issues coming as fads, like first cloud computing,ã De> then IoT?ããWell, the IoT manufacturers are repeating the mistakes of others before them,ãlike wifi router manufacturers, who for a long time supplied their gear with aãdefault password and no wifi security. Before mobile Internet becameãaffordable, it was a common ploy to drive around with a copy of Netstumblerãuntil you found an open network (didn't take long in those days!). If you wereãcourteous, you'd just download your email and leave, if not, maybe surf the webãor leech a few files. Of course, some people did put these open networks toãmore nefarious uses.ããToday, it's a lot less common to see an unsecured wifi AP (unless it's a publicãhotspot), and mobile Internet is cheap enough anyway, so it's not worth theãhassle.ããlater came the various attacks on home routers, by accessing them using theirãdefault password, and then messing with the configuration (e.g. redirecting DNSãto a bogus server that you control, so you can serve up malware, etc). ããRouter manufacturers and ISPs eventually woke up, and the routers came withãwifi security turned on and either a unique password or they forced one toãchoose a new password on first login. Some ISPs even configured the router forãthe customer, before shipping it.ããNow we come to IoT. Here we have a new generation of insecure devicesãrepeating the same mistakes (such as well known default passwords), and now weãhave malware targetting these devices as easy recruits for a botnet.ãã*sigh*ã... Disk Failure: (W)arm Boot, (C)old Boot, (S)teel Toe Boot?ã--- MultiMail/Win32 v0.49ã þ Synchronet þ Freeway BBS in Bendigo, Australia.ã
Deavmi wrote to Darkages <=-ãã De> I have actually come to grips with the syntax now and I love the wayã De> you type the syntax :).ããI've always like Pascal syntax. Pascal is the language I've done the mostãwith, so I do have a soft spot for it.ããã... Borg Burgers: We do it our way; your way is irrelevant.ã--- MultiMail/Win32 v0.49ã þ Synchronet þ Freeway BBS in Bendigo, Australia.ã
Deavmi wrote to Darkages <=-ãã De> I will also be sticking with Pascal as I like it a lot and FPC exists.ããI'm also looking at relearning Pascal. Even looking at code snippets isãbringing back memories, so it will be a lot less of a (re) learning curve thanãlearning C or another language from near scratch.ããã... Why get even, when you can get odd?ã--- MultiMail/Win32 v0.49ã þ Synchronet þ Freeway BBS in Bendigo, Australia.ã
I'm also looking at relearning Pascal. Even looking at code snippets isã> bringing back memories, so it will be a lot less of a (re) learning curveã> than learning C or another language from near scratch.ãã> ... Why get even, when you can get odd?ã> --- MultiMail/Win32 v0.49ã> â– Synchronet â– Freeway BBS in Bendigo, Australia.ããããI was busy reading the documentation on Free Pascal's Pascal and I shall returnãto it shortly.ãã+==========+ããRegards,ãTristan B. Kildaire (Deavmi)ããEmail: deavmi@ewbbs.synchro.net; deavmi@kk4qbn.synchro.netãã+==========+ãã---ã þ Synchronet þ KK4QBN + (706)-422-9538 + kk4qbn.synchro.net + 24/7/365ã
I'm also looking at relearning Pascal. Even looking at code snippets isã> bringing back memories, so it will be a lot less of a (re) learning curveã> than learning C or another language from near scratch.ãã> ... Why get even, when you can get odd?ã> --- MultiMail/Win32 v0.49ã> â– Synchronet â– Freeway BBS in Bendigo, Australia.ããããIf I have any questions I will come to you :).ãã+==========+ããRegards,ãTristan B. Kildaire (Deavmi)ããEmail: deavmi@ewbbs.synchro.net; deavmi@kk4qbn.synchro.netãã+==========+ãã---ã þ Synchronet þ KK4QBN + (706)-422-9538 + kk4qbn.synchro.net + 24/7/365ã
Deavmi wrote to Darkages <=-
I have actually come to grips with the syntax now and I love the way
you type the syntax :).
I've always like Pascal syntax. Pascal is the language I've done the most with, so I do have a soft spot for it.
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Deavmi wrote to Vk3jed <=-ãã De> I was busy reading the documentation on Free Pascal's Pascal and Iã De> shall return to it shortly.ããYeah, that's on my winter to do list, which is getting closer, with the lastãweek of the summer track season upon me. :)ããã... We print the news WE think you need to be told.ã--- MultiMail/Win32 v0.49ã þ Synchronet þ Freeway BBS in Bendigo, Australia.ã
Deavmi wrote to Vk3jed <=-ãã De> If I have any questions I will come to you :).ããWell, it's going to take a little while to get off the ground, though I did getã"Hello World" working. LOLããã... Catlapse: The cat's time between removal from a lap and awakeningã--- MultiMail/Win32 v0.49ã þ Synchronet þ Freeway BBS in Bendigo, Australia.ã
Deavmi wrote to Vk3jed <=-ã >ã De> I have a soft spot for it even though I never did it back in the dayã De> (lol). ããHaha OK, cool. Yeah, I actually did do quite a lot of Pascal back in the day.ã:)ããã... My brain has never had a firm grip on where my feet are.ã--- MultiMail/Win32 v0.49ã þ Synchronet þ Freeway BBS in Bendigo, Australia.ã
Poindexter Fortran wrote to Deavmi <=-ãã De> I have a soft spot for it even though I never did it back in the dayãlol).ãã PF> Anyone for FORTRAN? :)ããI did a little FORTRAN at university. Took a bit of getting used to, but wasãan excellent language for mathematical work. Even had a native type forãcomplex numbers (very handy for electronic engineering). ããã... I'm not nearly as think as you confused I am.ã--- MultiMail/Win32 v0.49ã þ Synchronet þ Freeway BBS in Bendigo, Australia.ã
Deavmi wrote to Vk3jed <=-
I was busy reading the documentation on Free Pascal's Pascal and I
shall return to it shortly.
Yeah, that's on my winter to do list, which is getting closer, with the last week of the summer track season upon me. :)
... We print the news WE think you need to be told.
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Deavmi wrote to Vk3jed <=-
If I have any questions I will come to you :).
Well, it's going to take a little while to get off the ground, though I did get
"Hello World" working. LOL
... Catlapse: The cat's time between removal from a lap and awakening
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Deavmi wrote to Vk3jed <=-
If I have any questions I will come to you :).
Well, it's going to take a little while to get off the ground, though I did get
"Hello World" working. LOL
... Catlapse: The cat's time between removal from a lap and awakening
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Re: Re: Opinion on Pascal
By: Deavmi to Vk3jed on Mon Mar 27 2017 02:04 pm
I've always like Pascal syntax. Pascal is the language I've done the
most with, so I do have a soft spot for it.
I have a soft spot for it even though I never did it back in the day (lol).
Anyone for FORTRAN? :)
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Deavmi wrote to Vk3jed <=-ã >ã > Yeah, that's on my winter to do list, which is getting closer, with the lastã > week of the summer track season upon me. :)ããã >ã De> Awesome to hear.ããYeah, should be fun. :)ããã... Transporter room, beam that Tagline up immediately!ã--- MultiMail/Win32 v0.49ã þ Synchronet þ Freeway BBS in Bendigo, Australia.ã
Deavmi wrote to Vk3jed <=-ãã De> program hello;ãã De> beginã De> writeln('Hello world');ã De> end.ããI had to addããUses Crt;ããat the top, it needs the CRT unit to be able to write to the console screen..ãDããã... The one question you've always wanted clarified. What did she say?ã--- MultiMail/Win32 v0.49ã þ Synchronet þ Freeway BBS in Bendigo, Australia.ã
Deavmi wrote to Vk3jed <=-ãã >ã De> I just love Pascal's syntax. So frikken sexy.ããI find it quite neat, for the most part.ããã... A BAND AID?!?! I'm a doctor not a... Oh yeah...ã--- MultiMail/Win32 v0.49ã þ Synchronet þ Freeway BBS in Bendigo, Australia.ã
Deavmi wrote to Vk3jed <=-
program hello;
begin
writeln('Hello world');
end.
I had to add
Uses Crt;
at the top, it needs the CRT unit to be able to write to the console screen.. D
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Deavmi wrote to Vk3jed <=-
I just love Pascal's syntax. So frikken sexy.
I find it quite neat, for the most part.
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I find it quite neat, for the most part.ã ãCleaner to read than a bunch of {} %#%$ () () ;ããMaybe it look less compact, but a code is brisk and small no because you typedãit compactly.ããRemember demonstrating that years ago at a job writing the same piece of codeãin Turbo Pascal and in Microsoft C.ããWe had a decompiler so we could see what both code looked like and at thatãlevel it was practically indistinguishable.ããAnd when you use Delphi the difference in the size of a .exe was dramatic.ããOpening a windows with "hello world" with a button to close was like 15kb.ãwhere the same in c# was like 250kb because of all the stuff it was ãbundling in it and that with turning the debug mode at off in both cases.ããSo at the end of the day, it's funnier to support code in Pascal than C orãJava. You can of course type less compact source code in c or java but it's upãto the developer, when pascal forces you.ããwhile (number > 0)ã {ã factorial *= number;ã --number;ã }ããorããwhile (nu > 0) {fa *= nu;--nu;}ããit will both do the same thing, but one is so much nicer to read that theãother.ããand once compiled that will end up being the same code executing in the ãsame amount of time.ãã---ã þ Synchronet þ MtlGeek - Geeks in Montreal - http://mtlgeek.com/ -ã
I like C's syntax. It's good and easier to type (physically with a ãkeyboardã > - not talking about the type system).ã ãBut so messy :-D ãã--------------------------ãabout me ? : q.ennev.com/aãã---ã þ Synchronet þ MtlGeek - Geeks in Montreal - http://mtlgeek.com/ -ã
Deavmi wrote to Vk3jed <=-ã > I had to addã >ã > Uses Crt;ã >ã > at the top, it needs the CRT unit to be able to write to the consoleãcreen..ã > Dã >ãã De> FPC includes that module by default.ããI got an error until I referenced the unit, then it compiled and ran fine. :)ããã... No Virus Found. AARRGGHH!! I've got the No Virus!!ã--- MultiMail/Win32 v0.49ã þ Synchronet þ Freeway BBS in Bendigo, Australia.ã
Ennev wrote to Vk3jed <=-ãã > I find it quite neat, for the most part.ãã En> Cleaner to read than a bunch of {} %#%$ () () ;ããIndeed! :)ãã En> Maybe it look less compact, but a code is brisk and small no becauseã En> you typed it compactly.ãã En> Remember demonstrating that years ago at a job writing the same pieceã En> of code in Turbo Pascal and in Microsoft C.ãã En> We had a decompiler so we could see what both code looked like and atã En> that level it was practically indistinguishable.ããInteresting. :)ãã En> And when you use Delphi the difference in the size of a .exe wasã En> dramatic.ããYeah, some compilers were shockers back then for including bloat into theirã.exe files.ãã En> So at the end of the day, it's funnier to support code in Pascal than Cã En> or Java. You can of course type less compact source code in c or javaã En> but it's up to the developer, when pascal forces you.ããI always found Pascal very readable, while C varied. ãã En> while (number > 0)ã En> {ã En> factorial *= number;ã En> --number;ã En> }ãã En> orãã En> while (nu > 0) {fa *= nu;--nu;}ããI know which I find more readable! :)ãã En> it will both do the same thing, but one is so much nicer to read thatã En> the other.ãã En> and once compiled that will end up being the same code executing in theã En> same amount of time.ããYep, something that's easy to support and creates efficient binary code is aãgood thing. :)ããã... When two Englishmen meet their first talk is of the weather.ã--- MultiMail/Win32 v0.49ã þ Synchronet þ Freeway BBS in Bendigo, Australia.ã
I find it quite neat, for the most part.
Cleaner to read than a bunch of {} %#%$ () () ;
Maybe it look less compact, but a code is brisk and small no because you typed
it compactly.
Remember demonstrating that years ago at a job writing the same piece of code in Turbo Pascal and in Microsoft C.
We had a decompiler so we could see what both code looked like and at that level it was practically indistinguishable.
And when you use Delphi the difference in the size of a .exe was dramatic.
Opening a windows with "hello world" with a button to close was like 15kb. where the same in c# was like 250kb because of all the stuff it was
bundling in it and that with turning the debug mode at off in both cases.
So at the end of the day, it's funnier to support code in Pascal than C or Java. You can of course type less compact source code in c or java but it's up
to the developer, when pascal forces you.
while (number > 0)
{
factorial *= number;
--number;
}
or
while (nu > 0) {fa *= nu;--nu;}
it will both do the same thing, but one is so much nicer to read that the other.
and once compiled that will end up being the same code executing in the
same amount of time.
---
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I find it quite neat, for the most part.
Cleaner to read than a bunch of {} %#%$ () () ;
Maybe it look less compact, but a code is brisk and small no because you typed
it compactly.
Remember demonstrating that years ago at a job writing the same piece of code in Turbo Pascal and in Microsoft C.
We had a decompiler so we could see what both code looked like and at that level it was practically indistinguishable.
And when you use Delphi the difference in the size of a .exe was dramatic.
Opening a windows with "hello world" with a button to close was like 15kb. where the same in c# was like 250kb because of all the stuff it was
bundling in it and that with turning the debug mode at off in both cases.
So at the end of the day, it's funnier to support code in Pascal than C or Java. You can of course type less compact source code in c or java but it's up
to the developer, when pascal forces you.
while (number > 0)
{
factorial *= number;
--number;
}
or
while (nu > 0) {fa *= nu;--nu;}
it will both do the same thing, but one is so much nicer to read that the other.
and once compiled that will end up being the same code executing in the
same amount of time.
---
� Synchronet � MtlGeek - Geeks in Montreal - http://mtlgeek.com/ -
I like C's syntax. It's good and easier to type (physically with akeyboard
- not talking about the type system).
But so messy :-D
--------------------------
about me ? : q.ennev.com/a
---
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I like C's syntax. It's good and easier to type (physically with akeyboard
- not talking about the type system).
But so messy :-D
--------------------------
about me ? : q.ennev.com/a
---
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Guess so but when you need to quickly write some code and test it out itã > beats things like Pascal. Also it ain't that messy - I like it quite a lot.ã > It isn't, let's say, as elegant as Pascal - I can tell you that.ã ãAt the and it's just about what works for you :-)ããSo that why it's good to get a look at what's available to see what fits yourãfor the project you have in mind.ããAll the roads lead to Rome.ãã---ã þ Synchronet þ MtlGeek - Geeks in Montreal - http://mtlgeek.com/ -ã
On 2017-03-30 09:12 PM, Ennev wrote:ã ã > Can we all agree though that Bash is a shit language.ã ãAnd yet, when i need to do something quick that i won't repeat much again i'llãgo there :-Dããa script in bash using grep and sed on huge file can be so quick.ãã---ã þ Synchronet þ MtlGeek - Geeks in Montreal - http://mtlgeek.com/ -ã
Deavmi wrote to Vk3jed <=-
I had to add
Uses Crt;
at the top, it needs the CRT unit to be able to write to the consolecreen..
D
FPC includes that module by default.
I got an error until I referenced the unit, then it compiled and ran fine. :)
.... No Virus Found. AARRGGHH!! I've got the No Virus!!
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Re: Re: Opinion on Pascal
By: Deavmi to Ennev on Thu Mar 30 2017 10:28 pm
Can we all agree though that Bash is a shit language.
In what way? What little experience I had with it, it was no different that the strange syntax of Windows/DOS Batch scripting. I did find BASH to be more
picky, though. I will agree it's a terrible language to script in, but I will
add on the fact that it is the most picky.
-jag
Code it, script it, automate it!
Re: Re: Opinion on Pascal
By: jagossel to Deavmi on Thu Mar 30 2017 06:07 pm
Re: Re: Opinion on Pascal
By: Deavmi to Ennev on Thu Mar 30 2017 10:28 pm
Can we all agree though that Bash is a shit language.
In what way? What little experience I had with it, it was no different that the strange syntax of Windows/DOS Batch scripting. I did find BASH to
be more picky, though. I will agree it's a terrible language to script in,
but I will add on the fact that it is the most picky.
Sorry to interject here, jumping into the middle of a conversation..
I would never consider Bash a programming language any more than I would DOS.
Both are more of a 'user interface', and over time capabilities were added so someone didn't have to sit down and write a program to do something.
But.. as a scripting language, it is similar to a programming language in that
is has specific syntax for specific commands. If you don't get the syntax correct, you're screwed no matter what language you're working in.
I find bash useful for scripting system commands and simple text or flat file processing. Expect is a bit nicer when you need to react different depending on a system or program response. Then again, I think that is about what these
two were designed for...
okay then.. carry on..
--
Hemo
.... I either want less corruption, or more chance to participate in it.
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Re: Re: Opinion on Pascal
By: jagossel to Deavmi on Thu Mar 30 2017 06:07 pm
Re: Re: Opinion on Pascal
By: Deavmi to Ennev on Thu Mar 30 2017 10:28 pm
Can we all agree though that Bash is a shit language.
In what way? What little experience I had with it, it was no different that the strange syntax of Windows/DOS Batch scripting. I did find BASH to
be more picky, though. I will agree it's a terrible language to script in,
but I will add on the fact that it is the most picky.
Sorry to interject here, jumping into the middle of a conversation..
I would never consider Bash a programming language any more than I would DOS.
Both are more of a 'user interface', and over time capabilities were added so someone didn't have to sit down and write a program to do something.
But.. as a scripting language, it is similar to a programming language in that
is has specific syntax for specific commands. If you don't get the syntax correct, you're screwed no matter what language you're working in.
I find bash useful for scripting system commands and simple text or flat file processing. Expect is a bit nicer when you need to react different depending on a system or program response. Then again, I think that is about what these
two were designed for...
okay then.. carry on..
--
Hemo
.... I either want less corruption, or more chance to participate in it.
---
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At the and it's just about what works for you :-)ãã> So that why it's good to get a look at what's available to see what fits yourã> for the project you have in mind.ãã> All the roads lead to Rome.ãã> ---ã> â– Synchronet â– MtlGeek - Geeks in Montreal - http://mtlgeek.com/ -ããããYour last line. Does that just mean "all languages do the same thing" or canãget the same job done (there are exceptions though ;), I'm sure).ãã+----+----+----+----+----+----+----+----+----+----+ãTristan B. Kildaire (deavmi@kk4qbn.synchro.net)ãInfo: `finger deavmi@kk4qbn.synchro.net`ã+----+----+----+----+----+----+----+----+----+----+ãã---ã þ Synchronet þ KK4QBN + (706)-422-9538 + kk4qbn.synchro.net + 24/7/365ã
Re: Re: Opinion on Pascalã> By: Deavmi to jagossel on Fri Mar 31 2017 15:14:51ãã> Same thing with SQL Server and SQL Scrpits or stored procedures.ãã> Error on line 73...ãã> "How exactly does a blank line cause an error? This isn't BrainF***!"ãã> I susoect it has a lot of how the scripts gets parsed in regards to lineã> numbers; not really sure how to get to the right line with the given lineã> number.ãã> -jagã> Code it, Script it, Automate it!ãã> ---ã> â– Synchronet â– MtlGeek - Geeks in Montreal - http://mtlgeek.com/ -ããããYeah. It's to do with the parsing. I can sympathize with Brian Fox for that; Iãcan dee myself running into the same sort of thing when I start writing my ownãparsers.ãã+----+----+----+----+----+----+----+----+----+----+ãTristan B. Kildaire (deavmi@kk4qbn.synchro.net)ãInfo: `finger deavmi@kk4qbn.synchro.net`ã+----+----+----+----+----+----+----+----+----+----+ãã---ã þ Synchronet þ KK4QBN + (706)-422-9538 + kk4qbn.synchro.net + 24/7/365ã
Deavmi wrote to Vk3jed <=-ãã De> What version of FPC are you using? Maybe your version doesn'tã De> implicitly include it.ãã3.0.0, if I recall.ããã... Manufacturing contact lenses is harder than meets the eye.ã--- MultiMail/Win32 v0.49ã þ Synchronet þ Freeway BBS in Bendigo, Australia.ã
Deavmi wrote to Hemo <=-ãã >ã De> Python is technically seen as a scripting language too but atleast it'sã De> better. Idk though. i love Python (you can use it as a command-line,ã De> just differently).ãããPerl falls to mind as well. now there's one that is confusing. About 15ãdifferent ways and back to do just about anything, ranging from completeãgibberish to human readable. And it all works.ãã... I'm not anti-social; I'm just not user friendly.ã--- MultiMail/Win32 v0.49ã þ Synchronet þ - Running madly into the wind and screaming - bbs.ujoint.orgã
Jagossel wrote to Hemo <=-ãã Ja> Re: Re: Opinion on Pascalã Ja> By: Hemo to jagossel on Thu Mar 30 2017 22:32:01ãã > I would never consider Bash a programming language any more than I would DOSãã Ja> No argument from me on that point. I get it's not a programmingã Ja> language in the fact that there is no code to compile. I never saidã Ja> that it is a programming language.ãã > But.. as a scripting language, it is similar to a programming language in thã Ja> atã > is has specific syntax for specific commands. If you don't get the syntaxã > correct, you're screwed no matter what language you're working in.ãã Ja> I totally get that. My point is that other languages (both scrpting andã Ja> programmimg languages) have SOME room for minor differenes inã Ja> whitespacing.ãã Ja> Again, I have VERY LITTLE experience with BASH and I get tripped upã Ja> from time to time when I do use it and I have to look up some things inã Ja> the manual.ãã Ja> Examples of where I stumbled a bit:ã Ja> - Spaces inside the square bracketsã Ja> - The special switches for if a directory or file exists or doesn'tã Ja> existã Ja> - Accepting argumemtsã Ja> - Defining functions first before calling itãããno arguments from me on any of that. I find the more languages one tries toãlearn, the more confusing it can be as things do vary between them. Sometimesãquite a bit. Sometimes little things, like the result when comparing strings. ãC returns 0 when they match, which still trips me up, becuase most otherãlanguages I may use return 1 or true when strings match.ãã... Weeds! No, that is my vineyard! Ever heard of dandelion wine?ã--- MultiMail/Win32 v0.49ã þ Synchronet þ - Running madly into the wind and screaming - bbs.ujoint.orgã
Deavmi wrote to Hemo <=-
Python is technically seen as a scripting language too but atleast it's better. Idk though. i love Python (you can use it as a command-line, just differently).
Perl falls to mind as well. now there's one that is confusing. About 15 different ways and back to do just about anything, ranging from complete gibberish to human readable. And it all works.
... I'm not anti-social; I'm just not user friendly.
--- MultiMail/Win32 v0.49
� Synchronet � - Running madly into the wind and screaming - bbs.ujoint.org
Jagossel wrote to Hemo <=-
Re: Re: Opinion on Pascal
By: Hemo to jagossel on Thu Mar 30 2017 22:32:01
I would never consider Bash a programming language any more than I would DOS
No argument from me on that point. I get it's not a programming
language in the fact that there is no code to compile. I never said
that it is a programming language.
But.. as a scripting language, it is similar to a programming language in th
at
is has specific syntax for specific commands. If you don't get the syntax correct, you're screwed no matter what language you're working in.
I totally get that. My point is that other languages (both scrpting and programmimg languages) have SOME room for minor differenes in whitespacing.
Again, I have VERY LITTLE experience with BASH and I get tripped up
from time to time when I do use it and I have to look up some things in the manual.
Examples of where I stumbled a bit:
- Spaces inside the square brackets
- The special switches for if a directory or file exists or doesn't exist
- Accepting argumemts
- Defining functions first before calling it
no arguments from me on any of that. I find the more languages one tries to learn, the more confusing it can be as things do vary between them. Sometimes quite a bit. Sometimes little things, like the result when comparing strings.
C returns 0 when they match, which still trips me up, becuase most other languages I may use return 1 or true when strings match.
... Weeds! No, that is my vineyard! Ever heard of dandelion wine?
--- MultiMail/Win32 v0.49
� Synchronet � - Running madly into the wind and screaming - bbs.ujoint.org
Deavmi wrote to Hemo <=-ãã De> On 2017-04-01 05:48 AM, Hemo wrote:ã > -=> Deavmi wrote to Hemo <=-ã >ã > >ã > De> Python is technically seen as a scripting language too but atleast it'sã > De> better. Idk though. i love Python (you can use it as a command-line,ã > De> just differently).ã >ã >ã > Perl falls to mind as well. now there's one that is confusing. About 15ã > different ways and back to do just about anything, ranging from completeã > gibberish to human readable. And it all works.ã >ã > ... I'm not anti-social; I'm just not user friendly.ã > --- MultiMail/Win32 v0.49ã > � Synchronet � - Running madly into the wind and screamingã-ã De> bbs.ujoint.orgã >ã De> Perl to me is not a nice language. Ugly as hell.ããLol - yes, I can see that, though it is a language I do a lot of work in and Iãtry very hard to write in such a way that others can understand, and I commentãthings heavily. I use Perl for text file manipulations mostly, I think itãexcels in this area. I have started doing some of my daily taks in bashãscripts when I can, because others in our support team understand bash moreãthan Perl.ããI dabbled in Pascal back in the 1990's, even wrote a few mods for Synchronetãback then that never really took off, but you can still find at least one ofãthem in BBS archives. It was my first attempt, and much like the work I doãtoday, it was manipulating a text file to change data. I didn't continue usingãPascal, and forgot most things.ããIn 1981 I wrote a huge multiple choice quiz system in Integer Basic on theãApple ][ series. It was basically a flat file database with a front end and anãeditor. I aced that class, and it was a fun project. I recall the teacherãused the program for a few quizes in the following years. (I gave permission)ããI started a class on Python and dropped it because I couldn't get over someãthings. I can't recall what those things were, I should go take another lookãat it.ããcheers,ã Hemo ã--- MultiMail/Win32 v0.49ã þ Synchronet þ - Running madly into the wind and screaming - bbs.ujoint.orgã
Deavmi wrote to Vk3jed <=-ã >ã > 3.0.0, if I recall.ãã De> Isn;'t that quite new?ããYep, current version is 3.0.2.ããã... If you feel strongly about graffiti, sign a partition.ã--- MultiMail/Win32 v0.49ã þ Synchronet þ Freeway BBS in Bendigo, Australia.ã
Jagossel wrote to Deavmi <=-ãã Ja> Same thing with SQL Server and SQL Scrpits or stored procedures.ãã Ja> Error on line 73...ãã Ja> "How exactly does a blank line cause an error? This isn't BrainF***!"ãã Ja> I susoect it has a lot of how the scripts gets parsed in regards toã Ja> line numbers; not really sure how to get to the right line with theã Ja> given line number.ããI would say it's because the parser has to be sure there is an error and thatãit doesn't prematurely flag an error inside a long block (like a function orãloop), so quite often, the offending error is well before where the compiler orãinterpreter flags it. For example, nest a few if-then-else statements in aãbash shell script and leave out an inner "fi", and depending on the code, theãerror can be indicated a fair way down the script. Similar things happen whenãquotes aren't closed, sometimes these will go all the way to the end of theãfile with "unexpected end of file".ããã... I can see clearly now, my brain is gone...ã--- MultiMail/Win32 v0.49ã þ Synchronet þ Freeway BBS in Bendigo, Australia.ã
Hemo wrote to Deavmi <=-ãã He> Perl falls to mind as well. now there's one that is confusing. Aboutã He> 15 different ways and back to do just about anything, ranging fromã He> complete gibberish to human readable. And it all works.ããI've dabbled in Perl, took a bit of study, but looked like quite a usefulãlanguage. I mostly script in BASH though, because at one stage, the code I wasãfiddling with most was almost all BASH scripts, and it's always available onãLinux boxes. :) Haven't ventured into Python yet, but I know a lot swear byãt.ããã... When eating an elephant, take one bite at a time.ã--- MultiMail/Win32 v0.49ã þ Synchronet þ Freeway BBS in Bendigo, Australia.ã
Hemo wrote to Jagossel <=-ããã Ja> Examples of where I stumbled a bit:ã Ja> - Spaces inside the square bracketsã Ja> - The special switches for if a directory or file exists or doesn'tã Ja> existã Ja> - Accepting argumemtsã Ja> - Defining functions first before calling itããYep, I think I've tripped up on most of these too at one stage, but you doãlearn the rules, eventually. :) As for those switches, I just pull up a copyãof one of the many excellent references available online, when I need help withãspecifics of syntax. Beats my memory, which tends to favour concepts overãdetail.ãã He> no arguments from me on any of that. I find the more languages oneã He> tries to learn, the more confusing it can be as things do vary betweenã He> them. Sometimes quite a bit. Sometimes little things, like the resultã He> when comparing strings. C returns 0 when they match, which still tripsã He> me up, becuase most other languages I may use return 1 or true whenã He> strings match.ããSame with anything where there's a lot of alternatives to learn. There'sãpotential for confusion. :)ããã... It is better to know some of the questions than all of the answers.ã--- MultiMail/Win32 v0.49ã þ Synchronet þ Freeway BBS in Bendigo, Australia.ã
Deavmi wrote to Hemo <=-ãã > no arguments from me on any of that. I find the more languages one tries toã > learn, the more confusing it can be as things do vary between them.ãometimesã > quite a bit. Sometimes little things, like the result when comparingãstrings.ãã > C returns 0 when they match, which still trips me up, becuase most otherã > languages I may use return 1 or true when strings match.ãã >ã De> 0 makes sense. It usually is always like that. It is a neutral number.ããIt depends how you define your logic, and there's no right or wrong way forãlanguage designers to define it, as long as the programmers using that languageãget it right in their code! :)ããã... !enilgat cinataS !eraweB æã--- MultiMail/Win32 v0.49ã þ Synchronet þ Freeway BBS in Bendigo, Australia.ã
KK4QBN wrote to Deavmi <=-ãã KK> All roads might lead to rome, but you have to fork off and take otherã KK> roads to get there, no single road will take you to rome, just as noã KK> single programming language would do 'everything' you would need it toã KK> do "I presume". So its nice to have options. I find bash scriting to beã KK> very helpul, just as anything else I can grasp on to, like Qbasic forã KK> example :)ããHorses for courses. Scripting languages are very useful. On Linux inãparticular, scripts can often be the glue that joines other software together,ãand language like Python and Perl can do a lot of jobs normally associated withãcompiled languages on modern machines, but there's still a place for compiledãcode too.ããI've started my relearning of Pascal, and it's coming back to me very quickly. ãHopefully by the end of winter (i.e. around September for those north of theãequator ;) ), I'll be able to write some decent code again in Pascal and getãsome of those projects I've had on hold moving (and perhaps open source aãcouple :) ).ããã... The colder the X-ray table, the more of your body is required on it.ã--- MultiMail/Win32 v0.49ã þ Synchronet þ Freeway BBS in Bendigo, Australia.ã
Hemo wrote to Deavmi <=-ãã De> Perl to me is not a nice language. Ugly as hell.ãã He> Lol - yes, I can see that, though it is a language I do a lot of workã He> in and I try very hard to write in such a way that others canã He> understand, and I comment things heavily. I use Perl for text fileã He> manipulations mostly, I think it excels in this area. I have startedã He> doing some of my daily taks in bash scripts when I can, because othersã He> in our support team understand bash more than Perl.ããThat was my impression too, though I've really done very little Perl. I'm moreãa BASH guy when it comes to scripting.ãã He> I dabbled in Pascal back in the 1990's, even wrote a few mods forã He> Synchronet back then that never really took off, but you can still findã He> at least one of them in BBS archives. It was my first attempt, andã He> much like the work I do today, it was manipulating a text file toã He> change data. I didn't continue using Pascal, and forgot most things.ããI started with TP 3 on CP/M (on a Z80 Softcard in an Apple // no less!) in 1984ãat school then progressed to TP on the PC in the mid 1980s and into the earlyã1990s. I wrote a bit of code, including my own Morse Code tutor, which was theãonly way I could obtain one, because there was no Internet in 1989, and Iãdidn't have a modem anyway, and lived out in the sticks. A few years later,ãwith the help of a friend for the Z80 assembler, I ported that code to TP 3 onãCP/M, with the assembler timing routines for sound generation and Morse timingã(coded as drop in functions and procedures for their DOS equivalents). Thatãwas released to the public domain on some local BBSs, but I haven't seen a copyãin recent years.ãã He> In 1981 I wrote a huge multiple choice quiz system in Integer Basic onã He> the Apple ][ series. It was basically a flat file database with aã He> front end and an editor. I aced that class, and it was a fun project.ã He> I recall the teacher used the program for a few quizes in the followingã He> years. (I gave permission)ããCool. I never did much with integer basic, I was more an Applesoft guy backãthen, and once playing with CP/M, it was MBASIC on that platform, though I muchãpreferred Pascal.ãã He> I started a class on Python and dropped it because I couldn't get overã He> some things. I can't recall what those things were, I should go takeã He> another look at it.ããI should look at Python sometime, but I have a ridiculous number of things onãthe go these days, relearning Padcal is a lesser learning curve, because a lotãof it will simply come back to me with use.ããã... Chuck Norris can divide by zero.ã--- MultiMail/Win32 v0.49ã þ Synchronet þ Freeway BBS in Bendigo, Australia.ã
Deavmi wrote to Hemo <=-ãã De> Thanks for the info. Maybe take a look at Python and you can figureã De> those things out. Maybe it's the heavy use of OOP?ããThat's one concept that I took to fairly naturally. I encountered OOP withãJava and had no problem understanding it.ããã... Spam will keep in it's can until the end of time.ã--- MultiMail/Win32 v0.49ã þ Synchronet þ Freeway BBS in Bendigo, Australia.ã
Re: Re: Opinion on Pascalã> By: KK4QBN to Deavmi on Sat Apr 01 2017 10:48 amãã> rã> toã> ngã> iceã> seãã> I like Qbasic too. I dont know why. maybe I have a goto mind.ã> Irv Handelã> ---ã> â– Synchronet â– Vertrauen â– Home of Synchronet â– ã> telnet://vert.synchro.netããããThe day I discovered goto in C I was like whaaaaaaat?ãã+----+----+----+----+----+----+----+----+----+----+ãTristan B. Kildaire (deavmi@kk4qbn.synchro.net)ãInfo: `finger deavmi@kk4qbn.synchro.net`ã+----+----+----+----+----+----+----+----+----+----+ãã---ã þ Synchronet þ KK4QBN + (706)-422-9538 + kk4qbn.synchro.net + 24/7/365ã
Any language with sub routines at the least.
+----+----+----+----+----+----+----+----+----+----+
Tristan B. Kildaire (deavmi@kk4qbn.synchro.net)
Info: `finger deavmi@kk4qbn.synchro.net` +----+----+----+----+----+----+----+----+----+----+
Re: Re: Opinion on Pascalã > By: Deavmi to Eyearrvee on Thu Apr 13 2017 11:46 amãã > > The day I discovered goto in C I was like whaaaaaaat?ãã > It's in C# as well; although, rarely used. Never understood the "goto" inã > C# or any other OO language.ãã > Granted I was pretty guilty of using GOTO when I programmed for fun on theã > TRS-80 CoCo as a kid.ããDid you RETURN?ãã---ã þ Synchronet þ Twisted Trucker BBS, Dartmouth NS Canadaã
Chris wrote to Jagossel <=-ãã Ch> Re: Re: Opinion on Pascalã Ch> By: Jagossel to Joe Delahaye on Mon May 29 2017 07:58 pmãã > Re: Re: Opinion on Pascalã > By: Joe Delahaye to Mickey on Sun May 28 2017 23:01:06ã >ã > > I still have a working CoCo 3 sitting on the shelf. Tested it the otherã > > the 60 inch TV. Certainly different <G>ã >ã > What? Ok, that I have got to see: a Tandy TRS-80 Color Computer 3 hooked upã > a 60" TV. :Dã >ã > -jagã > Code it, Script it, Automate it!ã >ã >ã Ch> I haven't seen it on a 60 inch tv yet, but footage from more recentã Ch> Cocofest meetings show it running on modern led/lcd monitors which Iã Ch> thought was really cool. It's really impressive the amount ofã Ch> development they are doing on Cocos to this day.ãã Ch> ------------------------------------------------------------------ã Ch> CDPã Ch> The Diamond Mine BBS - telnet://bbs.dmine.netã Ch> The Retro Room - http://forums.delphiforums.com/retroroomã Ch> ------------------------------------------------------------------ããI've got a C64/C128 hooked to a 17" and the capability to put it on the 55" ãLove it.ããIt looks better on a 4:3 ratio than a 19:6. The aspect stays the same, but,ãthere is a lot of death space on the 19:6ããJazzy_Jã... 2 + 2 = 5 for extremely large values of 2.ã--- MultiMail/Win32 v0.49ã þ Synchronet þ Jay's Cafe' tn://jayscafe.jayctheriot.com 23ã
Re: Re: Opinion on Pascalã > By: Joe Delahaye to Mickey on Sun May 28 2017 11:01 pmãã > > Re: Re: Opinion on Pascalã > > By: Mickey to Joe Delahaye on Sun May 28 2017 11:04:00ãã > > I still have a working CoCo 3 sitting on the shelf. Tested it the otherã > > day on the 60 inch TV. Certainly different <G>ããã > Cool! I cut my teeth on the Coco 2 and 3, still have both as well. Firstã > BBS I ever called was also on my Coco 2 :)ã > Great to seea nother Coco user.ãã > ---ã > þ Synchronet þ Vertrauen þ Home of Synchronet þ telnet://vert.synchro.netãYou got any compilers on that Coco currently installed?ãã---ã þ Synchronet þ UsersClub BBS - userclub-bbs.comã
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