Hey there.ããI'm currently a person learning Programming. Right now, I'm focusing on C andãJava(I might also plan to put more focus onto Python too). But, right now, I'mãwondering whether I should learn C++.ããI mean, a lot of Jobs nowadays involve or require C++. But the thing aboutãC++, is it's Syntax and the fact that a lot of people say that the theãLanguage is bloated and slow. I don't want a Language like that but I haveãbeen told to just decide for myself.ããI have learned basic Printing and getting User-Input from cplusplus.com butãthat's all. I mean, since I'm continuing to learn Java and since I know a bitãabout C, maybe it shouldn't be too hard to pick up C++.ããNow as for whether I should learn C++, should I? Is it a terrible Language dueãto it being "bloated" and "slow"(According to others anyway)?ããThanks.ãã--- Mystic BBS v1.12 A39 2018/04/21 (Windows/32)ã * Origin: Archaic Binaryã

Re: C++ã By: crow to All on Fri Nov 08 2019 01:54 pmãã > Hey there.ã >ã > I'm currently a person learning Programming. Right now, I'm focusing on Cã > and Java(I might also plan to put more focus onto Python too). But, rightã > now, I'm wondering whether I should learn C++.ã >ã > I mean, a lot of Jobs nowadays involve or require C++. But the thing aboutã > C++, is it's Syntax and the fact that a lot of people say that the theã > Language is bloated and slow. I don't want a Language like that but I haveã > been told to just decide for myself.ã >ã > I have learned basic Printing and getting User-Input from cplusplus.com butã > that's all. I mean, since I'm continuing to learn Java and since I know aã > bit about C, maybe it shouldn't be too hard to pick up C++.ã >ã > Now as for whether I should learn C++, should I? Is it a terrible Languageã > due to it being "bloated" and "slow"(According to others anyway)?ããC++ is definitely not "slow" by any measure, it's as "close to the hardware" as C but you do get a bit more overhead in your compiled code (compared to straight C). "bloated" is a subjective opinion, but I don't think it's any more bloated than Java, and definitely much faster than Java on average.ããC++ is object-oriented, so in that regard, is more like Java than C. Knowing C really should be a prerequisite for any C++ programmer, so I definitely think it's a good thing to learn (the K&R book and sites like hackerrank.com should be sufficient). Syntatically, Java and C++ are pretty similar.ããThere are even more C-inspired languages nowadays (e.g. C#, Objective-C, JavaScript, PHP), so I think learning C is a great starting place regardless whether you plan to learn/use C++ or not.ãã digital manããSynchronet "Real Fact" #73:ãSyncTERM (created by Deuce) contains portions of Synchronet and SEXYZ code.ãNorco, CA WX: 89.5øF, 13.0% humidity, 3 mph SW wind, 0.00 inches rain/24hrsã---ã þ Synchronet þ Vertrauen þ Home of Synchronet þ [vert/cvs/bbs].synchro.netã

Re: C++ã By: Digital Man to crow on Fri Nov 08 2019 01:20 pmãã DM> Knowing C really should be a prerequisite for any C++ programmer, so Iã DM> definitely think it's a good thing to learn (the K&R book and sites likeããWhen I was learning programming/software engineering, the college I started off at taught C++ from the start, with maybe one class using C later (mainly for having us program our own data structures). While learning C++, some knowlege of C was taught as well (which I think is required, since C++ can make use of most C headers and code). I don't think not fully learning C first hampered anything though.ããI also seem to remember hearing that some people had the opinion that learning C first could actually teach some bad habits, as far as making you used to non-object-oriented programming, which might make it more difficult to get used to OO programming with other languages later.ããAs far as speed, I've heard some people think the STL in C++ is slow and they like to avoid it. I think the STL is very poweful though, and is one of the best features of the C++ standard library, along with the algorithms included with the <algorithm> header. It seems to me they did what they can to make the STL fast via the use of templates, which resolve types at compile-time, which is faster than doing so at runtime.ããNightfoxãã---ã þ Synchronet þ Digital Distortion: digitaldistortionbbs.comã

Nightfox wrote:

I also seem to remember hearing that some people had the opinion that

learning C first could actually teach some bad habits, as far as making you used to non-object-oriented programming, which might make it more difficult to get used to OO programming with other languages later.

To me that makes sense. I taught myself C in probably 1993 for a project
for work, and continued with the language for years. Moving to C++ just doesn't click for me, I have a lot of trouble with object-oriented
programming no matter how much I try to force myself.

Maybe if I had learned C++ first it would make more sense. Then moving to
C shouldn't be difficult as C++ is loaded with C. Now I just stick with
php :)

Retro Guy

--
Posted on RetroBBS

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As for C++ apparently not being "Slow" and "Bloated", are you sure that isn'tãthe case?ããI mean, that's what a lot of people say. Either those people have worked withãthe Language and don't like it, some famous person has said it or people justãhate it to be like everyone else.ããBut, I do remember being told to not listen to the opinions of anyone else andãjust give the Language a shot. And when I say "opinions", I mean like bad orãbiased ones.ãã--- Mystic BBS v1.12 A39 2018/04/21 (Windows/32)ã * Origin: Archaic Binaryã

I would say that learning C++ first is bad.ããThe reason for that is probably due to it's complexity and many Features.ãWhich may cause people to not understand some of C++ or Programming inãgeneral. But a Language like C would be better for an intro to Programming inãmy opinion because it doesn't have things like Classes or other things such asãVectors(Whatever those are for anyway). Python is also good for a beginner andãcan help someone get into OO.ããAs for learning a Procedural-Language like C first that then stops someoneãfrom learning an OO-Language, I think I can understand why. If I'm correct,ãit's because the person who learned Procedural or even Functional, wouldn'tãhave used things like Classes or Objects before. As a result, they may notãknow much about it or the OO-Language.ããBut I don't think it should be too hard to transition from Procedural to OO. Iãmean, I'm learning both C(Procedural) and Java(OO) and I have no problems withãtwo completely different Paradigms. I know I'm not the only one who doesn'tãhave these sorts of issues with things like Paradigms.ãã--- Mystic BBS v1.12 A39 2018/04/21 (Windows/32)ã * Origin: Archaic Binaryã

crow wrote to All <=-ãã cr> I'm currently a person learning Programming. Right now, I'm focusing onã cr> C and Java(I might also plan to put more focus onto Python too). But,ã cr> right now, I'm wondering whether I should learn C++.ããAlthough C++ and Java are in demand, their demand is waning. Python, on theãother hand, is growing.ãOn top of that, Python is much better for learning how to program.ãã cr> I mean, a lot of Jobs nowadays involve or require C++. But the thingã cr> about C++, is it's Syntax and the fact that a lot of people say thatã cr> the the Language is bloated and slow. I don't want a Language like thatã cr> but I have been told to just decide for myself.ããNo, the language is not bloated, but the implementations might be, depending onãwhat system it's on.ãBut the language is very cumbersome to use compared to modern languages.ããRemember that C++ is not a redesign of C. C++ is C with objects bolted on. ãAll C programs are valid C++ programs.ãã cr> Now as for whether I should learn C++, should I? Is it a terribleã cr> Language due to it being "bloated" and "slow"(According to othersã cr> anyway)?ããAs a software professional for 30+ years, I would say "No". C++ isn't worthãlearning today.ãIt's sort of like learning COBOL right before Y2K.ãã ã--- MultiMail/Linux v0.52ã þ Synchronet þ Two Dudes BBS - twodudesbbs.comã

Digital Man wrote to crow <=-ãã DM> C++ is definitely not "slow" by any measure, it's as "close to theã DM> hardware" as C but you do get a bit more overhead in your compiled codeã DM> (compared to straight C).ããActually, C hasn't been "close to the hardware" since PDP days.ãSee https://queue.acm.org/detail.cfm?id=3212479ã ã--- MultiMail/Linux v0.52ã þ Synchronet þ Two Dudes BBS - twodudesbbs.comã

On 11-09-19 09:32, Retro Guy wrote to Nightfox <=-ãã RG> To me that makes sense. I taught myself C in probably 1993 for aã RG> project for work, and continued with the language for years. Moving toã RG> C++ just doesn't click for me, I have a lot of trouble withã RG> object-oriented programming no matter how much I try to force myself.ããI've dabbled in Java a little over 10 years ago, which was my introduction toãOO programming. I found I took to the concepts fairly well. However, Iãhaven't done much with C or C++. My head hasn't been in the right place forãcoding for a long time. ããã... We are ethically compelled to deny your demands!ã--- MultiMail/Win v0.51ã þ Synchronet þ Freeway BBS, Bendigo Australia. freeway.apana.org.auã

On 11-09-19 14:07, crow wrote to Digital Man <=-ãã cr> But, I do remember being told to not listen to the opinions of anyoneã cr> else and just give the Language a shot. And when I say "opinions", Iã cr> mean like bad or biased ones.ããThat's the best way. :)ããã... There's no place like ::1ã--- MultiMail/Win v0.51ã þ Synchronet þ Freeway BBS, Bendigo Australia. freeway.apana.org.auã

On 11-09-19 14:15, crow wrote to Nightfox <=-ãã cr> But I don't think it should be too hard to transition from Proceduralã cr> to OO. I mean, I'm learning both C(Procedural) and Java(OO) and I haveã cr> no problems with two completely different Paradigms. I know I'm not theã cr> only one who doesn't have these sorts of issues with things likeã cr> Paradigms.ããBack in the 90s, I was programming in Pascal, and dabbled in Java around 2007. ãI has no issues getting my head around the OO concepts in Java.ããã... Let me know if this message doesn't get through to you.ã--- MultiMail/Win v0.51ã þ Synchronet þ Freeway BBS, Bendigo Australia. freeway.apana.org.auã

On 11-09-19 18:42, Dr. What wrote to crow <=-ãã DW> Although C++ and Java are in demand, their demand is waning. Python,ã DW> on the other hand, is growing.ã DW> On top of that, Python is much better for learning how to program.ããI haven't looked at Python yet, but I've heard a lot of good things about it. ãMight have to investigate it, if I ever physically slow down, or hit a long runãof hyperfocus on software. :)ããã... And God said, "Let there be light, but make it quick."ã--- MultiMail/Win v0.51ã þ Synchronet þ Freeway BBS, Bendigo Australia. freeway.apana.org.auã

Re: Re: C++ã By: Retro Guy to Nightfox on Sat Nov 09 2019 09:32 amãã RG> Maybe if I had learned C++ first it would make more sense. Then moving to ã RG> C shouldn't be difficult as C++ is loaded with C. Now I just stick with ã RG> php :)ããPHP has had object-oriented features for quite a while now.. ;)ããNightfoxãã---ã þ Synchronet þ Digital Distortion: digitaldistortionbbs.comã

Re: Re: C++ã By: crow to Nightfox on Sat Nov 09 2019 02:15 pmãã cr> I would say that learning C++ first is bad.ãã cr> The reason for that is probably due to it's complexity and many Features.ã cr> Which may cause people to not understand some of C++ or Programming inã cr> general. But a Language like C would be better for an intro to Programmingã cr> in my opinion because it doesn't have things like Classes or other thingsã cr> such as Vectors(Whatever those are for anyway). Python is also good for aã cr> beginner and can help someone get into OO.ããI dunno.. Maybe it depends on the person. I had learned C++ first (though I suppose technically I had done some BASIC years earlier), and I don't think it was a big issue to learn object-oriented programming. I suppose it took a bit to get my head around it, but after a short while I understood it, and after that it's like second nature.ããNightfoxãã---ã þ Synchronet þ Digital Distortion: digitaldistortionbbs.comã

Re: Re: C++ã By: crow to Digital Man on Sat Nov 09 2019 02:07 pmãã cr> As for C++ apparently not being "Slow" and "Bloated", are you sure thatã cr> isn't the case?ãã cr> I mean, that's what a lot of people say. Either those people have workedã cr> with the Language and don't like it, some famous person has said it orã cr> people just hate it to be like everyone else.ããPerhaps C++ is bloated compared to something like C, or slower than something like hand-optimized assembly code.. But C++ is relatively low-level compared to more modern languages like Java and C#, and being a compiled language, it's certainly faster than something like Python, Ruby, etc..ããNightfoxãã---ã þ Synchronet þ Digital Distortion: digitaldistortionbbs.comã

Re: Re: C++ã By: Dr. What to crow on Sat Nov 09 2019 06:42 pmãã DW> Although C++ and Java are in demand, their demand is waning. Python, onã DW> the other hand, is growing.ã DW> On top of that, Python is much better for learning how to program.ããPython is getting more popular, but I'm not sure how much C++ might be waning. C++ started to gain a lot of modern features with C++11, and there are new C++ standards coming out about every 3 years now (there has been C++11, C++14, and now a C++20 is planned for next year. I think the more modern features being added to C++ may be helping its popularity right now.ãã DW> Remember that C++ is not a redesign of C. C++ is C with objects bolted on.ã DW> All C programs are valid C++ programs.ããC++ isn't a true superset of C. C++ is maybe 99% compatible with C, but there are some features from C that don't quite work the same in C++. Objective-C is a true superset of C though (and it's true to say any C program is also a valid Objective-C program).ãã DW> As a software professional for 30+ years, I would say "No". C++ isn'tã DW> worth learning today.ã DW> It's sort of like learning COBOL right before Y2K.ããI'm not sure about that.. C++ is still used for a good number of projects. And C++ has been around so long that it (along with C) is a sort of de-facto standard for some things (i.e., C is the de-facto standard for the external interface for Windows DLLs and shared libarries on Linux).ããIt seems C++ has been in the top 3 popular programming languages for at least the last several years or so. I've heard the top 3 are Java, C, and C++, and that still seems to be the case:ãhttps://zd.net/32wIY0EãFull URL:ãhttps://www.zdnet.com/article/programming-language-popularity-c-bounces-back-atã-pythons-expense/ããNightfoxãã---ã þ Synchronet þ Digital Distortion: digitaldistortionbbs.comã

Nightfox wrote:

Re: Re: C++
By: Retro Guy to Nightfox on Sat Nov 09 2019 09:32 am

Maybe if I had learned C++ first it would make more sense. Then moving

to

C shouldn't be difficult as C++ is loaded with C. Now I just stick with php :)

PHP has had object-oriented features for quite a while now.. ;)

Yes, and I struggle with them :) If I was a programmer for a living now,
I'd focus more on it, but at this time it's just a hobby.

Retro Guy

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Re: Re: C++ã By: crow to Digital Man on Sat Nov 09 2019 02:07 pmãã > As for C++ apparently not being "Slow" and "Bloated", are you sure thatã > isn't the case?ããLike I said, "bloated" is a subjective opinion.ããC++ being "slow" is false. C++ compilers compile to native code with usually very little overhead. If the program is slow, it's the programmer's fault, not the language (C++).ãã digital manããThis Is Spinal Tap quote #9:ãDavid St. Hubbins: I mean, it's not your job to be as confused as Nigel.ãNorco, CA WX: 76.2øF, 25.0% humidity, 7 mph ENE wind, 0.00 inches rain/24hrsã---ã þ Synchronet þ Vertrauen þ Home of Synchronet þ [vert/cvs/bbs].synchro.netã

Re: Re: C++ã By: Dr. What to crow on Sat Nov 09 2019 06:42 pmãã > All C programs are valid C++ programs.ããWhile that was true long ago, it's not any longer. Most C source code today will not compile as C++.ãã digital manããSynchronet "Real Fact" #68:ãRobert D. Bouman, the author of SyncEdit, died in the mid to late 1990's.ãNorco, CA WX: 75.9øF, 25.0% humidity, 6 mph ENE wind, 0.00 inches rain/24hrsã---ã þ Synchronet þ Vertrauen þ Home of Synchronet þ [vert/cvs/bbs].synchro.netã

Re: Re: C++ã By: Dr. What to Digital Man on Sat Nov 09 2019 06:43 pmãã > -=> Digital Man wrote to crow <=-ã >ã > DM> C++ is definitely not "slow" by any measure, it's as "close to theã > DM> hardware" as C but you do get a bit more overhead in your compiled codeã > DM> (compared to straight C).ã >ã > Actually, C hasn't been "close to the hardware" since PDP days.ã > See https://queue.acm.org/detail.cfm?id=3212479ãã"Close" is relative. Other than Assembler, I know of no programming language that is "closer to the hardware" than C.ãã digital manããThis Is Spinal Tap quote #4:ãDavid St. Hubbins: He died in a bizarre gardening accident...ãNorco, CA WX: 75.9øF, 25.0% humidity, 6 mph ENE wind, 0.00 inches rain/24hrsã---ã þ Synchronet þ Vertrauen þ Home of Synchronet þ [vert/cvs/bbs].synchro.netã

Re: Re: C++ã By: Nightfox to Dr. What on Sat Nov 09 2019 08:52 pmãã > Re: Re: C++ã > By: Dr. What to crow on Sat Nov 09 2019 06:42 pmã >ã > DW> Although C++ and Java are in demand, their demand is waning. Python, onã > DW> the other hand, is growing.ã > DW> On top of that, Python is much better for learning how to program.ã >ã > Python is getting more popular, but I'm not sure how much C++ might beã > waning. C++ started to gain a lot of modern features with C++11, and thereã > are new C++ standards coming out about every 3 years now (there has beenã > C++11, C++14, and now a C++20 is planned for next year. I think the moreã > modern features being added to C++ may be helping its popularity right now.ã >ã > DW> Remember that C++ is not a redesign of C. C++ is C with objects boltedã > DW> on. All C programs are valid C++ programs.ã >ã > C++ isn't a true superset of C. C++ is maybe 99% compatible with C, butã > there are some features from C that don't quite work the same in C++.ã > Objective-C is a true superset of C though (and it's true to say any Cã > program is also a valid Objective-C program).ã >ã > DW> As a software professional for 30+ years, I would say "No". C++ isn'tã > DW> worth learning today.ã > DW> It's sort of like learning COBOL right before Y2K.ã >ã > I'm not sure about that.. C++ is still used for a good number of projects.ã > And C++ has been around so long that it (along with C) is a sort of de-factoã > standard for some things (i.e., C is the de-facto standard for the externalã > interface for Windows DLLs and shared libarries on Linux).ã >ã > It seems C++ has been in the top 3 popular programming languages for atã > least the last several years or so. I've heard the top 3 are Java, C, andã > C++, and that still seems to be the case:ã > https://zd.net/32wIY0Eã > Full URL: https://www.zdnet.com/article/programming-language-popularity-c-boã > unces-back-at -pythons-expense/ããYou seen this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Og847HVwRSI ?ããSeems topical and mesmerizing. :-)ãã digital manããSynchronet "Real Fact" #82:ãFlapuebarg unf vagreany ebg13 fhccbeg sbe fhcresvpvnyyl rapelcgvat grkg.ãNorco, CA WX: 75.4øF, 24.0% humidity, 5 mph ENE wind, 0.00 inches rain/24hrsã---ã þ Synchronet þ Vertrauen þ Home of Synchronet þ [vert/cvs/bbs].synchro.netã

Re: Re: C++ã By: Digital Man to Nightfox on Sun Nov 10 2019 11:54 amãã DM> You seen this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Og847HVwRSI ?ãã DM> Seems topical and mesmerizing. :-)ããI hadn't seen that before. Makes sense, but I'm also a little surprised. I'd think C++, C#, and C would be higher up toward the end.ããNightfoxãã---ã þ Synchronet þ Digital Distortion: digitaldistortionbbs.comã

Nightfox wrote to Dr. What <=-ãã Ni> Python is getting more popular, but I'm not sure how much C++ might beã Ni> waning. C++ started to gain a lot of modern features with C++11, andã Ni> there are new C++ standards coming out about every 3 years now (thereã Ni> has been C++11, C++14, and now a C++20 is planned for next year. Iã Ni> think the more modern features being added to C++ may be helping itsã Ni> popularity right now.ããI base my statement on the fact that the last time I used C++ was about 20ãyears ago. Everything that I've done professionally has been in somethingãelse.ããMany of the programming jobs today are in the web area. C++ isn't there.ãYou might get some C/C++ in the IoT area, but with the popularity ofãMicro/CircuitPython, even that area is looking to move away from C in the longãterm.ãAndroid development is primarily in Java (although you can still do some C++ãstuff there).ãIn my current company, the big product that they have is all C# (which hasãlittle to do with C).ããSo, like COBOL, C/C++ isn't going away anytime soon. But demand for it isãdropping and the programming community is actively looking for something toãreplacement (it's hoped that Go will do it).ã ã--- MultiMail/Linux v0.52ã þ Synchronet þ Diamond Mine Online BBS - bbs.dmine.net:24 - Fredericksburg, VA USAã

Re: Re: C++ã By: Dr. What to Nightfox on Tue Nov 12 2019 06:52 pmãã Ni>> and there are new C++ standards coming out about every 3 years nowã Ni>> (there has been C++11, C++14, and now a C++20 is planned for nextã Ni>> year. I think the more modern features being added to C++ may beã Ni>> helping its popularity right now.ãã DW> I base my statement on the fact that the last time I used C++ was about 20ã DW> years ago. Everything that I've done professionally has been in somethingã DW> else.ããI've been a developer since 2003, and I've used C++ at almost every job I've had. One of the companies I've worked at is Intel, where C++ is used quite a bit. There are also a lot of math libraries, such as the Cuda libraries that make use of Nvidia's GPUs for number-crunching, that interface with C/C++. I've intereviewed for another job recently at another company where C++ is used for much of their work (electronics test instrumentation tools and wireless communication software). Perhaps if C++ isn't as common as other languages, C++ software is still out there, and it seems to me C++ is still a fairly popular language.ãã DW> So, like COBOL, C/C++ isn't going away anytime soon. But demand for it isã DW> dropping and the programming community is actively looking for somethingã DW> to replacement (it's hoped that Go will do it).ããC++ started to get regular updates to its standard in 2011 though, and the C++ standard is being updated every 3 years now. There's the C++11 standard, C++14, C++17, and soon C++20. I don't imagine the C++ standard would be updated so much if there wasn't enough demand for C++.ããNightfoxããNightfoxãã---ã þ Synchronet þ Digital Distortion: digitaldistortionbbs.comã

Nightfox wrote to Dr. What <=-ãã Ni> I've been a developer since 2003, and I've used C++ at almost every jobã Ni> I've had.ããI've been a developer since 1987 and I've used C++ for only 2 jobs.ãIn both cases, the only reason we used C++ was because that was really the onlyãoption.ããIn the last 20 years, it's beem mainly JavaScript, Java, C#, Perl. And evenãCOBOL.ãã Ni> One of the companies I've worked at is Intel, where C++ isã Ni> used quite a bit. There are also a lot of math libraries, such as theã Ni> Cuda libraries that make use of Nvidia's GPUs for number-crunching,ã Ni> that interface with C/C++. I've intereviewed for another job recentlyã Ni> at another company where C++ is used for much of their workã Ni> (electronics test instrumentation tools and wireless communicationã Ni> software).ããWhich makes sense. But that type of programming is the exception, not the ruleãtoday.ãã Ni> Perhaps if C++ isn't as common as other languages, C++ã Ni> software is still out there, and it seems to me C++ is still a fairlyã Ni> popular language.ããMy argument is that C++ is about as popular as COBOL. Both languages stillãhave a large installed base and are still in use.ããThe issue comes from the other costs of software: development and maintenance. ãIt costs much more to develop software in C++ than a modern programmingãlanguage. Companies are looking to use more modern programming languages thatãlower those development and maintenance costs - even if it costs more to runãbecause computer time is cheap today.ããEric S. Raymond has several good articles on this topic.ãhttp://esr.ibiblio.org/ããYou might want to check out the Julia programming language. It promises toãhave the ease of development like Python, but the speed of C. I've only playedãwith it a bit, but it does seem to come close to meeting those promises.ãã Ni> C++ started to get regular updates to its standard in 2011 though, andã Ni> the C++ standard is being updated every 3 years now. There's the C++11ã Ni> standard, C++14, C++17, and soon C++20. I don't imagine the C++ã Ni> standard would be updated so much if there wasn't enough demand forã Ni> C++.ããCOBOL and FORTRAN have also been updated in recent years (FORTRAN in 2018 andãCOBOL in 2014). But that doesn't mean that they are growing in demand.ã ã--- MultiMail/Linux v0.52ã þ Synchronet þ Diamond Mine Online BBS - bbs.dmine.net:24 - Fredericksburg, VA USAã