so accurate now. why would companies be on the lookout for people whoã MR> don't want to work anymore?ããMy guess is that the codebase is so large and complicated that re-hiring retired devs would be more efficient than hiring new devs who don't know their way around the code. On the other hand, new applications may not require the same amount of experience, and this is where new devs would step in.ãã... Hand of Vecna? I give it to the liche.ã
unixl0rd wrote to All <=-ãã un> Is there actual demand for new COBOL developers? I thought companiesã un> were on the lookout for experienced developers who are either retiredã un> or about to retire.ããThe demand isn't what it used to be. But there are great deal of criticalãsystems that use COBOL out there. Most companies, though, are actively tryingãto get off those systems for cost reasons (one of which is having to pay aãCOBOL developer a high salary).ããIHMO: The demand is good - now. But the market is actively trying to reduceãthat demand. So in the long term, a COBOL career is not a good way to go.ããã... If you want her to show emotion, cut up her credit cards.ã--- MultiMail/Linux v0.52ã þ Synchronet þ ** The Gate BBS - Shelby, NC - thegateb.synchro.net **ã
Is there actual demand for new COBOL developers? I thought companies were onãã> lookout for experienced developers who are either retired or about toãetire.ããCOBOL - You're Thinking About It Wrongãã"...[W]hile headlines might indicate the language had fallen into disfavor,ãthe amount of COBOL in use continues to grow, with 800 billion lines runningãin production systems daily, according to a global survey conducted last yearãby enterprise software firm Micro Focus. COBOL is considered strategic by 92%ãof survey respondents, and over half said they expect their organizations toãkeep running their COBOL applications for at least another 10 years.ãã"COBOL suffers from a 'major image problem' that stems from fundamentalãmisperceptions. When a group of academic and industry researchers asked membersãof the COBOL Working Group of the Open Mainframe Project to rank the top fiveãCOBOL misperceptions, the top opinions were that the language is outdated, hardãto learn and a bad career choice.ãã"None of that is true, the researchers wrote in the December 2022 paper...ãUnlike modern programming languages that require specific syntax, COBOL isãrelatively simple to learn. It was developed 'o be easy to read, understand,ãand program for programmers in the 1960s who had few explicit trainingãopportunities,' the paper said."ããThe article goes on to speculate that the COBOL's perception problem stems fromã"IT leaders" who were familiar with COBOL no longer being the ones makingãdecisions. It also mentions how the lack of COBOL training and programmers leadãto the issues that government unemployment systems had during the increasedãsystem demand caused by the pandemic.ããMore here:ãhttps://gcn.com/cloud-infrastructure/2023/01/cobol-youre-thinking-about-it-wronãg/381563/ããhttps://tinyurl.com/3maz6md7ããã * SLMR 2.1a * "Now who's laughing?! Now who's laughing?!" - Pagansãã---ã þ Synchronet þ CAPCITY2 * capcity2.synchro.net * Telnet/SSH:2022/Rlogin/HTTPã
unixl0rd wrote to MRO <=-ãã un> My guess is that the codebase is so large and complicated thatã un> re-hiring retired devs would be more efficient than hiring new devs whoã un> don't know their way around the code. On the other hand, newã un> applications may not require the same amount of experience, and this isã un> where new devs would step in.ããThe problem for these companies is:ã1. COBOL isn't perceived as a good career path since it's being phased out.ã2. While legacy code doesn't get alot of work done on it, it tends to beã**bad** code because of the number of different programmers having worked on itãover the (sometimes, many, many) years.ããSo new devs don't have the COBOL skills and have to be trained on somethingãthat has a corporate-stated end of life - which is a bad investment. And evenãif the new devs have COBOL skills, they wouldn't have the experience to quicklyãand effectively change the legacy code.ããã... You are in a maze of UUCP connections, all alike.ã--- MultiMail/Linux v0.52ã þ Synchronet þ ** The Gate BBS - Shelby, NC - thegateb.synchro.net **ã
Dumas Walker wrote to UNIXL0RD <=-ãã DW> "COBOL suffers from a 'major image problem' that stems from fundamentalã DW> misperceptions.ããSomehow, I doubt it. If that's the problem with COBOL, it's also the problemãwith FORTRAN.ãã DW> When a group of academic and industry researchers askedããAhhh... Now I see where the reality distortion field comes in. 8)ãã DW> The article goes on to speculate that the COBOL's perception problemã DW> stems from "IT leaders" who were familiar with COBOL no longer beingã DW> the ones making decisions.ããNo. I think it has to do with companies figuring out that big IBM mainframesãmay not be the best solution for their needs and that COBOL has some prettyãsevere limitations.ããSpeaking of the 2 very large corporations that I have experience with (one wasãa large warehouse system, the other a large retailer), both had multi-yearãplans to phase out COBOL. By the time I left those companies, they were wellãon their way down that plan, and both had done big changes to their COBOLãdeveloper corps (some layoffs, some retraining).ããHowever, like weight loss, where that last 10% to your goal is hard, gettingãrid of that last 10% of the COBOL code might take a while.ããã... We'll burn that bridge when we come to it.ã--- MultiMail/Linux v0.52ã þ Synchronet þ ** The Gate BBS - Shelby, NC - thegateb.synchro.net **ã
IHMO: The demand is good - now. But the market is actively trying to reduceã> that demand. So in the long term, a COBOL career is not a good way to go.ããWhile I tend to agree with you, that is what they were saying after Y2Kãcame and passed. That was 23 years ago. :)ããã * SLMR 2.1a * "When you have a rib-eye steak, you must floss it!"-Homerãã---ã þ Synchronet þ CAPCITY2 * capcity2.synchro.net * Telnet/SSH:2022/Rlogin/HTTPã
Dumas Walker wrote to DR. WHAT <=-ãã > IHMO: The demand is good - now. But the market is actively trying to reduceã > that demand. So in the long term, a COBOL career is not a good way to go.ãã DW> While I tend to agree with you, that is what they were saying after Y2Kã DW> came and passed. That was 23 years ago. :)ããBut they were right. The number of COBOL jobs dropped significantly after Y2K.ã And most of the ones left are maintenance jobs.ããI never said that COBOL was gone. But as a long term career, COBOL is a poorãchoice. Now, COBOL plus <something else> may be a good thing in most companiesãtoday. But a COBOL-only programmer isn't going to have a good job for 20ãyears.ããã... Who is General Failure, and *WHY* is he reading my disk?ã--- MultiMail/Linux v0.52ã þ Synchronet þ ** The Gate BBS - Shelby, NC - thegateb.synchro.net **ã
MRO wrote to Dr. What <=-ãã > I never said that COBOL was gone. But as a long term career, COBOL is aã > poor choice. Now, COBOL plus <something else> may be a good thing in mostã > companies today. But a COBOL-only programmer isn't going to have a good jobã > for 20 years.ã >ãã MR> if they worked for my state govt they would.ãã*sigh* Yes. I keep forgetting about the technical backwater which is theãgov't.ããã... A hundred years from now, none of us will give a damn.ã--- MultiMail/Linux v0.52ã þ Synchronet þ ** The Gate BBS - Shelby, NC - thegateb.synchro.net **ã
I never said that COBOL was gone. But as a long term career, COBOL is aã> > poor choice. Now, COBOL plus <something else> may be a good thing in mostã> > companies today. But a COBOL-only programmer isn't going to have a goodãoã> > for 20 years.ã> >ãã> if they worked for my state govt they would.ããThey would here, too, *except* they could get paid a lot more elsewhere,ãeven as a contract employee.ããã * SLMR 2.1a * It's the Bucket woman! She'll sing at me!!!ãã---ã þ Synchronet þ CAPCITY2 * capcity2.synchro.net * Telnet/SSH:2022/Rlogin/HTTPã
MRO wrote to Dr. What <=-ãã > I never said that COBOL was gone. But as a long term career, COBOL is aã > poor choice. Now, COBOL plus <something else> may be a good thing in mostã > companies today. But a COBOL-only programmer isn't going to have a good jobã > for 20 years.ã >ãã MR> if they worked for my state govt they would.ãããYeah, I don't think the idea was to put all of your eggs in one basket,ãsays the guy with FORTRAN in his handle. :)ããããã... The Machine keeps pushing time through the cogs, like paste into stringsã--- MultiMail/Win v0.52ã þ Synchronet þ .: realitycheckbbs.org :: scientia potentia est :.ã
Dr. What wrote to MRO <=-ãã DW> *sigh* Yes. I keep forgetting about the technical backwater which isã DW> the gov't.ããCalifornia EDD was backlogged during COVID and blamed their COBOL code.ãI bet they were waiting on budget for another dozen AS/400s.ãããã... Only the machine keeps using time to make time to make time.ã--- MultiMail/Win v0.52ã þ Synchronet þ .: realitycheckbbs.org :: scientia potentia est :.ã
Dumas Walker wrote to MRO <=-ãã > if they worked for my state govt they would.ãã DW> They would here, too, *except* they could get paid a lot moreã DW> elsewhere, even as a contract employee.ããYeah, but after working for a local government for a time, the key isn'tãthe salary - it's the PENSION. Keep your head down, don't make waves,ãlast 5 years and you could start collecting a pension when you retire.ããThe floor was something like 5% after 5 years, scaling upwards everyãyear. 5 percent of your salary FOR LIFE. Once you get in the habit ofãdoing just enough to not get fired and don't come onto anyone's radar,ãthe years just keep piling up.ãããã... Only the machine keeps using time to make time to make time.ã--- MultiMail/Win v0.52ã þ Synchronet þ .: realitycheckbbs.org :: scientia potentia est :.ã
poindexter FORTRAN wrote to MRO <=-ãã pF> Yeah, I don't think the idea was to put all of your eggs in one basket,ã pF> says the guy with FORTRAN in his handle. :)ããI have his brother, Microsoft FORTRAN, working on my NuXT system.ãIt actually works pretty good for something that old.ããã... Please affix a 29-cent stamp on your next message.ã--- MultiMail/Linux v0.52ã þ Synchronet þ ** The Gate BBS - Shelby, NC - thegateb.synchro.net **ã
They would here, too, *except* they could get paid a lot moreã> DW> elsewhere, even as a contract employee.ãã> Yeah, but after working for a local government for a time, the key isn'tã> the salary - it's the PENSION. Keep your head down, don't make waves,ã> last 5 years and you could start collecting a pension when you retire.ãã> The floor was something like 5% after 5 years, scaling upwards everyã> year. 5 percent of your salary FOR LIFE. Once you get in the habit ofã> doing just enough to not get fired and don't come onto anyone's radar,ã> the years just keep piling up.ããThat depends on the state you live in. States like Kentucky and Illinois,ãwho were busy cutting benefits for new hires vs. funding their obligation toãretirement, and then trying to get the fed government to allow them toãdeclare the system bankrupt, are not good places to go like they might haveãbeen in the 1990's and before.ããKentucky cut out the 5% annual COLA increment/increase 20 years ago. Theyãdidn't really cut it out, they just quit paying it about the same time theyãquit paying their retirement funding obligation. One year, someoneãrealized they had a whole group of people who had not got raises in yearsãhad fallen UNDER the federal poverty level. So they got just enough ofãan increase (only that group, and not anywhere near the cost of living) toãget them back above the poverty level. IIRC, it may have happened twice.ããUntil a year ago, very few long term employees that had less than 20 yearsãexperience had ever got any kind of annual increment or cost of living payãincreases during their entire state government career, beyond the initialã5% they got for making it to the end of probation. The only pension mostãof them will get is what they put in their 401 or 457 account which, unlessãthey were smart and moved a bunch of their money to the low-but-guaranteedãfix rate option, is not looking real good lately.ããI doubt KY is the only state government where this has become true, butãabout the only people who they can recruit and keep now are people whoãcannot hold down a job anywhere else, people who are married to someoneãthat has a good paying job with good benefits, or people who are holdingãdown 2 (or more) jobs. The rest stay long enough to get experience and thenãleave for someplace with better pay, benefits, and maybe even full-time remoteãwork.ããThe only IT staff they hire now are contract employees.ããã * SLMR 2.1a * 2 + 2 = 5 for extremely large values of 2.ãã---ã þ Synchronet þ CAPCITY2 * capcity2.synchro.net * Telnet/SSH:2022/Rlogin/HTTPã
*sigh* Yes. I keep forgetting about the technical backwater which isã> DW> the gov't.ãã> California EDD was backlogged during COVID and blamed their COBOL code.ã> I bet they were waiting on budget for another dozen AS/400s.ããKentucky was blaming "the computer program" for the UI issues during theãsame period, but the real problem was that they had stopped staffing theãarea in charge of updating the code. They only had 2 programmers onãstaff to try to make all of the changes required to override the rules ofã"normal, non-pandemic processing."ããã * SLMR 2.1a * Got my tie caught in the fax... Suddenly I was in L.A.ãã---ã þ Synchronet þ CAPCITY2 * capcity2.synchro.net * Telnet/SSH:2022/Rlogin/HTTPã
Feoh wrote to unixl0rd <=-ãã Fe> He recently lost his job with IBM, and was casting around looking forã Fe> new employment, and it was rough.ãã Fe> Does that mean you shouldn't learn COBOL or IBM mainframe technology?ã Fe> Not at all! It could be an interesting experience and improve the depthã Fe> and breadth of your understanding of technology as a whole.ããI was thinking of people learning the basics of COBOL or RPG as anãadditional skill. I thought that might come in handy, and for the jobsãlooking for those skills, finding someone not near retirement age mightãset you apart from any competition for the role.ãã(As I look at my own career, and realize I'm one of those guys nearingãretirement age... except with no mainframe experience.)ããã Fe> To my mind, contributing to open source and building a resume of codeã Fe> people can review and appreciate matters a lot more, as well as jobã Fe> experience.ãããModern languages are a little more conducive to home projects, in myãopinion. A Github page with utilities written in BASH, a Python script,ãor PHP that you use personally seems likely.ããA COBOL program that collates inventory orders and updates onhandãquantities? Not something you'd code in your spare time (or at home!)ããããã... LET'S GO TO THE COLONIES!ã--- MultiMail/Win v0.52ã þ Synchronet þ .: realitycheckbbs.org :: scientia potentia est :.ã
Speaking from experience, where I work (as is the case everywhere) theã CD> cobol programmers are aging out and retiring. The new ones we hire areã CD> still in the same general age range and I'm sure they are demanding aã CD> lot of money since the pool is getting smaller and the codebase is stillã CD> significant.ããI've got about fifteen years of experience as a web developer and to be honest I am kinda bored. Learning COBOL might give me the stimulation I need right now even if it doesn't land me a job.ãã... I BM. You BM. We all BM for IBM!ã
unixl0rd wrote to CDP <=-ãã un> I've got about fifteen years of experience as a web developer and to beã un> honest I am kinda bored. Learning COBOL might give me the stimulation Iã un> need right now even if it doesn't land me a job.ããIn general, learning other languages, especially on different platforms,ãteaches you a great deal and make you think a little differently in theãprogramming languages that you use.ããBack when I was in college, they taught Pascal as the starting language. Notãbecause it was a great language that you would use in the Real World, butãbecause you would often take the ideas that you learned in Pascal and applyãthem to other languages like FORTRAN or COBOL (ex: minimize GOTO statements).ããFor me, learning about Python's async code helped me a great deal inãunderstanding the same ideas in C# that I use for work.ããIt also helps to get a difference perspective from other systems with otherãconstraints. At work, we had a problem where a newby programmer basically sentã16GB through a system that assumed that data would be 16MB and basically gummedãeverything up. The root problem was that this newby programmer had neverãencountered a system that didn't have more than enough resources to do whateverãhe want. For those of us who grew up with computers with 16K, we always thinkãabout asking if we have enough resources.ããã... You would if you could but you can't so you won't.ã--- MultiMail/Linux v0.52ã þ Synchronet þ ** The Gate BBS - Shelby, NC - thegateb.synchro.net **ã
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