It's patently obvious that some folks here understand BaJa (andãprogramming in general) very well.ããCould someone take the lead and TRY to educate the rest of us (or me ifãno one else is interested) in how to use the BaJa programmig language.ããI can follow along with DEFAULT.SRC in what's it's doing. How everãDEFAULT.SRC doesn't show everything avaiable with BaJa. Perhaps openãsome things up for discussion.ããAngus did something like this with Perl but it didn't go very far (orãfar enough) and he assummed for his series that somethings were alreadyãunderstood.ããI am looking for something more like 'BaJa Programming 101' Take someãbasic commands and show how they can be used in programs. Even if it'sãthe ever popular "Hello World!"ããOf course it would be nice if such classes gave rise to a usefull doorãor something that could be used with SBBS. But not mandatory.ããShells give a small slice of what's possible. Mostly they re-arrange theãBBS commands. A few do all-together different things.ããAnyway, while waiting for the next Terrorist attack, perhaps we can doãsomething.ããThanks.ããã... Computer Hacker wanted. Must have own axe.ã--- MultiMail/MS-DOS v0.40ã þ Synchronet þ Bits-N-Bytes BBS - One Hellova BBS -- telnet://bnb.dtdns.netã

RE: Class requestãBY: Finnigann to All on Fri Oct 19 2001 07:09 pmãã > I am looking for something more like 'BaJa Programming 101' Take someã > basic commands and show how they can be used in programs. Even if it'sã > the ever popular "Hello World!"ããã PRINT "Hello World!\r\n"ãã:)ããBaja, like any other language, is like a box of lego bricks. You look into theãbox (or read http://synchro.net/docs/baja.html) and you look at theãindividual shapes/verbs and individually, they are very simple. What you, asãthe programmer/constructor have to do, is mentally think of a way to fit themãtogether so as to construct a larger, more complex, and (presumably) moreãuseful item. Say a wall/code-fragment or roof/subroutine. These larger, moreãcomplex and sophisticated pieces can in turn be combined and so on and so forthãuntil you have a complete house/program.ããAnyone who has some programming experience under their belt will find BAJA aãsimple, uncomplicated language to use. There is no unusual notation (a la APLãor Perl), no OOP paradigm to master (like Java), no twisted command structureã(Forth).ããNon-programmers who wish to learn the art are best advised to "get stuck in"ãsomewhere and begin coding. No, NOT with your first project being aãmulti-threaded IRC client. Pick something simple, and bang away at it until itãis working, then discard that and move on to something else. It helps a greatãdeal to get all the working code you can from other authors, and read through,ãtrying to comprehend how the various bits of the code work together. It helpsãto get a text-bok on programing too -- unfortunately there are no textbooksãthat use BAJA as their example language. And I don't think anyone around hereãis ready to _write_ one! ;-)ã---ã þ Synchronet þ Vertrauen þ Home of Synchronet þ [vert/cvs/bbs].synchro.netã

Amcleod wrote to Finnigann <=-ãã Am> RE: Class requestã Am> BY: Finnigann to All on Fri Oct 19 2001 07:09 pmãã > I am looking for something more like 'BaJa Programming 101' Take someã > basic commands and show how they can be used in programs. Even if it'sã > the ever popular "Hello World!"ããã Am> PRINT "Hello World!\r\n"ãã Am> :)ããForget the intro part?ãã # Requires Baja v2.20 or laterãã !include fileio.incãã PRINT "Hello World!\r\n"ãã # End of demoããã Am> Baja, like any other language, is like a box of lego bricks. You lookã Am> into the box (or read http://synchro.net/docs/baja.html) and you lookã Am> at the individual shapes/verbs and individually, they are very simple.ã Am> What you, as the programmer/constructor have to do, is mentally thinkã Am> of a way to fit them together so as to construct a larger, moreã Am> complex, and (presumably) more useful item. Say a wall/code-fragmentã Am> or roof/subroutine. These larger, more complex and sophisticatedã Am> pieces can in turn be combined and so on and so forth until you have aã Am> complete house/program.ããLike the room full of monkeys pounding out Shakespere (eventually)?ãBut wouldn't said room of monkeys benefit from an understanding of theãwords they were trying to couple together?ãã Am> Anyone who has some programming experience under their belt will findã Am> BAJA a simple, uncomplicated language to use. There is no unusualã Am> notation (a la APL or Perl), no OOP paradigm to master (like Java), noã Am> twisted command structure (Forth).ããWell I don't fall into the catagory of experience but I can follow whatãis being attempted in most baja programs. Yes it can be a marvelousãtool... if given a chance.ãã Am> Non-programmers who wish to learn the art are best advised to "getã Am> stuck in" somewhere and begin coding. No, NOT with your first projectã Am> being a multi-threaded IRC client. Pick something simple, and bangã Am> away at it until it is working, then discard that and move on toã Am> something else. It helps a great deal to get all the working code youã Am> can from other authors, and read through, trying to comprehend how theããã Am> various bits of the code work together. It helps to get a text-bok onã Am> programing too -- unfortunately there are no textbooks that use BAJA asã Am> their example language. And I don't think anyone around here is readyã Am> to _write_ one! ;-) ---ããGiven that you know it would help, why not do like you did with the PERLãmessages? A (a message being) chapter at a time, maybe. With more thanãone person contributing.ããA few minutes to wring out a short program (doesn't have to be moreãuseful than Hello_world.pl) Just let it examplfy some aspect of Baja.ããSomeone did a short one on CASE and how it would be used in some specificãapplication they needed. Well looking it up AND with what was writtenãhere, I have a better understanding of it's possible uses. Lacking that,ãI doubt I could have made sense of what is in the help file. (BAJA.DOC)ãããã... Heisenberg may have slept here.ã--- MultiMail/MS-DOS v0.40ã þ Synchronet þ Bits-N-Bytes BBS - One Hellova BBS -- telnet://bnb.dtdns.netã

RE: Class requestãBY: Finnigann to Amcleod on Sat Oct 20 2001 05:21 pmãã > Given that you know it would help, why not do like you did with the PERLã > messages? A (a message being) chapter at a time, maybe. With more thanã > one person contributing.ããActually, I don't think I would be a very good person to do this. Simplyãbecause it is a LONG time since I coded anything serious in BAJA. I don't runãmy own BBS any more, so I don't _really_ have any motivation to do any BAJAãcoding. And there have been _lots_ of extensions to and innovations within theãBAJA language since I was last involved with it to any extent.ããYou need to find someone who actively programs in BAJA on their own board, andãask them to do this. I am not the right person -- I can't even test my ownãexample programs properly!ã---ã þ Synchronet þ Vertrauen þ Home of Synchronet þ [vert/cvs/bbs].synchro.netã

RE: Class requestãBY: Finnigann to Amcleod on Sat Oct 20 2001 05:21 pmãã > Am> PRINT "Hello World!\r\n"ã > ã > Am> :)ã > ã > Forget the intro part?ã > ã > # Requires Baja v2.20 or laterã > ã > !include fileio.incã > ã > PRINT "Hello World!\r\n"ã > ã > # End of demoããNo, none of those other lines are necessary (there are no FILE I/O calls, forãexample) and the "Requires Baja v2.20 or later" comment is inaccurate. There isãnothing about Angus's example that wouldn't have worked in Baja v1.0.ãã-Robã---ã þ Synchronet þ Vertrauen þ Home of Synchronet þ [vert/cvs/bbs].synchro.netã

Amcleod wrote to Finnigann <=-ãã Am> RE: Class requestã Am> BY: Finnigann to Amcleod on Sat Oct 20 2001 05:21 pmããã Am> You need to find someone who actively programs in BAJA on their ownã Am> board, and ask them to do this. I am not the right person -- I can'tã Am> even test my own example programs properly!ããSorry I came on a bit stronger than I intended. I didn't mean to buttonãhole you on this.ããAny future input you can contribute (if it goes further than myãpleading) will be most appriciated.ããã... "It's funny how all the guards disappeared so fast." Garibaldiã--- MultiMail/MS-DOS v0.40ã þ Synchronet þ Bits-N-Bytes BBS - One Hellova BBS -- telnet://bnb.dtdns.netã

Digital Man wrote to Finnigann <=-ãã DM> RE: Class requestã DM> BY: Finnigann to Amcleod on Sat Oct 20 2001 05:21 pmãã > Am> PRINT "Hello World!\r\n"ã >ã > Am> :)ã >ã > Forget the intro part?ã >ã > # Requires Baja v2.20 or laterã >ã > !include fileio.incã >ã > PRINT "Hello World!\r\n"ã >ã > # End of demoãã DM> No, none of those other lines are necessary (there are no FILE I/Oã DM> calls, for example) and the "Requires Baja v2.20 or later" comment isã DM> inaccurate. There is nothing about Angus's example that wouldn't haveã DM> worked in Baja v1.0.ã ãI just snipped a bit from another source file. An attempt at humor.ãHowever the comments would be a necessity (While not so much for thisãexample) for longer .SRC filesããAnd I don't mean to sound ungrateful for all you have done. However fromãa non-programmers poit of view, the BaJa DOCs leave me with moreãquestions than answers. I understand that they are reference material,ãand not a tutorial on programming techniques or styles.ããBut that sort of thing would be helpful (at least to me).ããI am not saying you have fallen short in anyway with your monumentalãefforts with SBBS. On the contrary I will sing your praises anywhere Iãcan.ããNor am I suggesting you or anyone should do as I am asking. But stillãif anyone recalls their first attempts at programming and wishes to makeãa contribution here in DoVeNet... Well I wouldn't stop them either.ãããã... All I want is a warm bed, a kind word, and *unlimited power*...ã--- MultiMail/MS-DOS v0.40ã þ Synchronet þ Bits-N-Bytes BBS - One Hellova BBS -- telnet://bnb.dtdns.netã

RE: Class requestãBY: Finnigann to All on Fri Oct 19 2001 07:09 pmãã > I am looking for something more like 'BaJa Programming 101' Take someã > basic commands and show how they can be used in programs. Even if it'sã > the ever popular "Hello World!"ããI want to learn also. A Baja Class would be the ticket. If anyone start aãclass..I'll attend it or the class lesson for the day...hey I would evenãdo..ere...do the lesson work sheet. =)ãã-arielãã---ã þ Synchronet þ Steel Realms * The Other Side Of Forever * Carson, Californiaã

Lord Steel wrote to Finnigann <=-ãã LS> RE: Class requestã LS> BY: Finnigann to All on Fri Oct 19 2001 07:09 pmãã > I am looking for something more like 'BaJa Programming 101' Take someã > basic commands and show how they can be used in programs. Even if it'sã > the ever popular "Hello World!"ãã LS> I want to learn also. A Baja Class would be the ticket. If anyone startã LS> a class..I'll attend it or the class lesson for the day...hey I wouldã LS> even do..ere...do the lesson work sheet. =)ãã LS> -arielã ãA slow start to be sure. I've heard from Angus about it and DM isãalready correcting code entries... (-:ããDon't worry, there is no homework. althou an Offline mail readerãwould help people alot.ããI started re-reading the baja manual again. Each time some more seepsãin. It's just that I'm not famialar with the words of the baja langaugeãto be able to write it. Hopefully some folks here that are, will take upãthe task of writing a message or two about some aspect they foundãinteresting.ããTime will tell.ããã... As a matter of FACT I DO own the road!ã--- MultiMail/MS-DOS v0.40ã þ Synchronet þ Bits-N-Bytes BBS - One Hellova BBS -- telnet://bnb.dtdns.netã

RE: Class requestãBY: Finnigann to Lord Steel on Sun Oct 21 2001 08:25 amãã > A slow start to be sure. I've heard from Angus about it and DM isã > already correcting code entries... (-:ã > ã > Don't worry, there is no homework. althou an Offline mail readerã > would help people alot.ã > ã > I started re-reading the baja manual again. Each time some more seepsã > in. It's just that I'm not famialar with the words of the baja langaugeã > to be able to write it. Hopefully some folks here that are, will take upã > the task of writing a message or two about some aspect they foundã > interesting.ã > ã > Time will tell.ããI am still in the process of fixing my small bbs. I did not even look at theãbaja docs yet. I don't think it is wise and helpful if I start asking 'weird'ãquestions to DM and Angus about baja problems while I can't put a 100% effortãon learning. I think I have a few ideas I wanted to try later. If someone putãsomething baja related (snippets, tutorial, etc), I would be more than willingãto try it, of course. Hey, we would not learn if we do not try it. I wonder howãlong before we drive DM and Angus crazy by posting a 20 line program that a oneãliner would have handled easily? =)ãã-arielãã---ã þ Synchronet þ Steel Realms * The Other Side Of Forever * Carson, Californiaã

RE: Class requestãBY: Lord Steel to Finnigann on Sun Oct 21 2001 12:42 pmãã > I wonder howã > long before we drive DM and Angus crazy by posting a 20 line program that a ã > one liner would have handled easily? =)ããWhat drives me crazy is when I write a 20-line program and someone shows me howãdumb I am by posting a one-liner to do the job! Aaaaaarrrggghhh!!! Itãhappens all the time with Perl. Perl one-liners are an art-form!ã---ã þ Synchronet þ Vertrauen þ Home of Synchronet þ [vert/cvs/bbs].synchro.netã

Lord Steel wrote to Finnigann <=-ãã LS> I am still in the process of fixing my small bbs. I did not even lookã LS> at the baja docs yet. I don't think it is wise and helpful if I startã LS> asking 'weird' questions to DM and Angus about baja problems while Iã LS> can't put a 100% effort on learning. I think I have a few ideas Iã LS> wanted to try later. If someone put something baja related (snippets,ã LS> tutorial, etc), I would be more than willing to try it, of course. Hey,ã LS> we would not learn if we do not try it. I wonder how long before weã LS> drive DM and Angus crazy by posting a 20 line program that a one linerã LS> would have handled easily? =)ãã LS> -arielã ãIf Angus isn't interested... he prolly wont reply. Rob is different,ãsometimes he's very helpful and other times he's a bit cryptic. I wouldãimagine that a new family takes up a lot of his time. So I don't expectãhim to reply with a long message about one thing or another.ããHowever we do have a few other folks that can and do code in BaJa.ãPistolgrip made a contribution already.ããI intend to save all of these messages for later compilation. For otherãbudding programmers.ããã... Que sera, sweatshop: What will be, will work too hard. ã--- MultiMail/MS-DOS v0.40ã þ Synchronet þ Bits-N-Bytes BBS - One Hellova BBS -- telnet://bnb.dtdns.netã

RE: Class requestãBY: Amcleod to Lord Steel on Sun Oct 21 2001 05:19 pmãã > What drives me crazy is when I write a 20-line program and someone shows me ã > dumb I am by posting a one-liner to do the job! Aaaaaarrrggghhh!!! Itã > happens all the time with Perl. Perl one-liners are an art-form!ããIsn't there a repository for Perl, Javascript or Baja snippets that we can use.ãI mean I use a Javascript book with pre-prepared scripts to use for websitesãwhen I needed to use one..life saver that book. So instead of stumbling with aã20 to 40 line program..we can use a standard 1 or 2 liner to do loops, getãfile info or even add info to existing files. I mean I found out this week thatãariel.txt+srbbs.txt can be combined into another text. Powerful info forãsomeone who does not know anything about programming. I could use that forãlater projects. So just drop some learning on us...the poor <sniff> unwashedãgroundlings.ãã-arielãã---ã þ Synchronet þ Steel Realms * The Other Side Of Forever * Carson, Californiaã

RE: Class requestãBY: Finnigann to Lord Steel on Sun Oct 21 2001 07:55 pmãã > If Angus isn't interested... he prolly wont reply. Rob is different,ã > sometimes he's very helpful and other times he's a bit cryptic. I wouldã > imagine that a new family takes up a lot of his time. So I don't expectã > him to reply with a long message about one thing or another.ã > ã > However we do have a few other folks that can and do code in BaJa.ã > Pistolgrip made a contribution already.ã > ã > I intend to save all of these messages for later compilation. For otherã > budding programmers.ããRob, he teaches by pointing you to the right direction and if you really wantãto learn you will find it and then he expect you to ask the next logicalãquestion so he knows you understand.ããAngus, As long as he can verify what he says is true..he will spill his guts toãus. We might be the ones asking him to wait for us to assimilate all info heãdropped on us.ããPistolgrip, I saw how his Baja works..wow...but I don't know how he teachesãyet.ãã-arielãã---ã þ Synchronet þ Steel Realms * The Other Side Of Forever * Carson, Californiaã

RE: Class requestãBY: Lord Steel to Finnigann on Sun Oct 21 2001 05:40 pmãã > > If Angus isn't interested... he prolly wont reply. Rob is different,ã > > sometimes he's very helpful and other times he's a bit cryptic. I wouldã > > imagine that a new family takes up a lot of his time. So I don't expectã > > him to reply with a long message about one thing or another.ã > >ã > > However we do have a few other folks that can and do code in BaJa.ã > > Pistolgrip made a contribution already.ã > ã > Rob, he teaches by pointing you to the right direction and if you really wanã > to learn you will find it and then he expect you to ask the next logicalã > question so he knows you understand.ããI agree, Rob has a good way of teaching things. He may not always give youã100% of the answer right away, but he does point in the direction you need toãgo to teach yourself. This is much better than having someone give you theãanswer, now you know the answer but you're still no better off then you wereãbefore. I also imagine Rob gets bombarded with questions (sometimes stupidãones), judging solely by the amount of SBSB related emails I get here.ãã > Pistolgrip, I saw how his Baja works..wow...but I don't know how he teachesã > yet.ããWell, I'll teach in what ever manner is best for that particular student. But,ãI will give one warning now. I'm not going to get too in-depth with my BAJAãexamples because with the new JS support in Synchronet I will personally beãmoving away from BAJA and coding in JS for the BBS. But, I did want to try andãgive some examples I thought some of you may find useful.ããBAJA is both a surprisingly easy language to learn, and a fairly powerfulãlanguage. There are however a couple key programming components missing fromãit, which can make doing certain things much harder than other languages. Thisãis why I would encourage most of you looking beyond a simple command shell andãtoward a program-like application to learn JS instead. Some things are muchãeasier to do in JS. But, JS does have a higher learning curve.ããPGãã---ã þ Synchronet þ WasteLand BBS þ telnet://wasteland.darktech.org ã