Nightfox wrote to Jagossel <=-ãã Ni> I imagine Apple is frustrated with Intel right now, but companiesã Ni> sometimes go into a bit of a slump, but I don't think it should meanã Ni> Apple should drop Intel.ããJust read an article on this. The author claimed Apple will be closingãtheir desktop line in the not so distant future (rumor). I think it would be ãstrange to invest in a new processor design, then close shop on desktops.ãApparently, iPad Pro's, iPads, and other IOS devices are their bread and ãbutter. They're not making that much from desktops.ããIt should be noted the article was based on opinion from viewing recentãApple commercials where Desktops are referenced to be outdated antiques.ãIt's just the author's hunch, not literal fact. Apparently, the Mac lineãdoesn't get much attention at the WWDC. ãã ã--- MultiMail/Linux v0.51ã þ Synchronet þ Frugal Computing BBS - frugalbbs.comã

Re: Re: Running linux in vm oã By: Chai to Nightfox on Wed Oct 17 2018 08:35 pmãã > -=> Nightfox wrote to Jagossel <=-ã >ã > Ni> I imagine Apple is frustrated with Intel right now, but companiesã > Ni> sometimes go into a bit of a slump, but I don't think it should meanã > Ni> Apple should drop Intel.ã >ã > Just read an article on this. The author claimed Apple will be closingã > their desktop line in the not so distant future (rumor). I think it wouldã > be strange to invest in a new processor design, then close shop onã > desktops.ããMaybe desktops doesn't include laptops?ãã digital manããSynchronet "Real Fact" #98:ãThe Synchronet Wiki (wiki.synchro.net) went online in April of 2010.ãNorco, CA WX: 66.0øF, 32.0% humidity, 0 mph SSW wind, 0.00 inches rain/24hrsã---ã þ Synchronet þ Vertrauen þ Home of Synchronet þ [vert/cvs/bbs].synchro.netã

Re: Re: Running linux in vm oã By: Chai to Nightfox on Wed Oct 17 2018 08:35 pmãã Ni>> I imagine Apple is frustrated with Intel right now, but companiesã Ni>> sometimes go into a bit of a slump, but I don't think it should meanã Ni>> Apple should drop Intel.ãã Ch> Just read an article on this. The author claimed Apple will be closingã Ch> their desktop line in the not so distant future (rumor). I think it wouldã Ch> be strange to invest in a new processor design, then close shop onã Ch> desktops. Apparently, iPad Pro's, iPads, and other IOS devices are theirã Ch> bread and butter. They're not making that much from desktops.ãã Ch> It should be noted the article was based on opinion from viewing recentã Ch> Apple commercials where Desktops are referenced to be outdated antiques.ã Ch> It's just the author's hunch, not literal fact. Apparently, the Mac lineã Ch> doesn't get much attention at the WWDC. ããeh... It would seem like a very strange decision to drop desktops altogether. ãAnd by "desktops", does that also include laptop computers? I can't imagineãthat not enough people would want those that Apple would decide to drop them. ãThere are still types of work that I think are easiest on that kind of device. ãAlso, I could see people adding a keyboard and a mouse to a tablet, and at thatãpoint it becomes basically like a laptop anyway.ããBut then again, Apple has made decisions to drop things ahead of their time inãthe past. The first iMac didn't have a floppy drive, at a time when peopleãstill used floppies, and I was also surprised when Apple decided to removeãoptical drives from their computers (and they never did even have blu-rayãdrives).ããNightfoxãã---ã þ Synchronet þ Digital Distortion: digitaldistortionbbs.comã

Re: Re: Running linux in vm oã By: Nightfox to Chai on Thu Oct 18 2018 09:31:19ãã > Ch> Just read an article on this. The author claimed Apple will be closingã > Ch> their desktop line in the not so distant future (rumor). I think itã > Ch> would be strange to invest in a new processor design, then close shopã > Ch> on desktops. Apparently, iPad Pro's, iPads, and other IOS devices areã > Ch> their bread and butter. They're not making that much from desktops.ã >ã > eh... It would seem like a very strange decision to drop desktopsã > altogether. And by "desktops", does that also include laptop computers? Iã > can't imagine that not enough people would want those that Apple wouldã > decide to drop them. There are still types of work that I think are easiestã > on that kind of device. Also, I could see people adding a keyboard and aã > mouse to a tablet, and at that point it becomes basically like a laptopã > anyway.ã >ã > But then again, Apple has made decisions to drop things ahead of their timeã > in the past. The first iMac didn't have a floppy drive, at a time whenã > people still used floppies, and I was also surprised when Apple decided toã > remove optical drives from their computers (and they never did even haveã > blu-ray drives).ããMy Mac has a blu-ray drive. Er, though I grafted it in there myself. It didn'tãcome with it.ããJust a few months ago, there was an interview with Schiller where heãacknowledged that they dicked things up with the trash can Mac Pro, and thatãthey were going to be releasing an actual, modular, upgradeable Mac Pro thatãwould be more mainstream and what pro consumers actually wanted. Since thatãmachine hasn't arrived yet, I can't see them dropping the desktop line.ãã---ã þ Synchronet þ Amiga City - The BBS for the Amiga - more than 2,500+ filesã

Re: Re: Running linux in vm oã By: Derision to Nightfox on Sun Oct 21 2018 06:50 pmãã De> My Mac has a blu-ray drive. Er, though I grafted it in there myself. Itã De> didn't come with it.ããYeah, Apple never made an actual Mac model that came with a blu-ray drive asãstandard. I'm not sure what software (if any) might be available for OS X toãburn blu-ray discs or to watch blu-ray movies on a Mac.ãã De> Just a few months ago, there was an interview with Schiller where heã De> acknowledged that they dicked things up with the trash can Mac Pro, andã De> that they were going to be releasing an actual, modular, upgradeable Macã De> Pro that would be more mainstream and what pro consumers actually wanted.ã De> Since that machine hasn't arrived yet, I can't see them dropping theã De> desktop line. ããI always think it's good to have a modular and upgradeable desktop PC. Some ofãApple's older ads for their G3 and G4 desktop Macs advertized easyãupgradeability as a feature.ããNightfoxãã---ã þ Synchronet þ Digital Distortion: digitaldistortionbbs.comã

Re: Re: Running linux in vm oã By: Nightfox to Derision on Mon Oct 22 2018 09:53:23ãã > De> My Mac has a blu-ray drive. Er, though I grafted it in there myself. Itã > De> didn't come with it.ã >ã > Yeah, Apple never made an actual Mac model that came with a blu-ray drive asã > standard. I'm not sure what software (if any) might be available for OS Xã > to burn blu-ray discs or to watch blu-ray movies on a Mac.ããThe ability to burn to a blu-ray disc is built-in to macOS. There are externalãUSB burners that work fine out of the box for burning to and reading burnedãblu-ray discs. Playing a movie on a blu-ray is another story. There ARE a fewãpieces of software... Macgo Blu-ray Player and some other bits, that'll do it,ãbut it usually isn't cheap, and kind of not worth it when you can just downloadãa digital file of the same quality.ãã > I always think it's good to have a modular and upgradeable desktop PC. Someã > of Apple's older ads for their G3 and G4 desktop Macs advertized easyã > upgradeability as a feature.ããI still have my old Quicksilver G4, which I've upgraded and maxed out over theãyears. Despite the fact that it can't run any version of OSX over 10.5, I'veãfound that it's still a perfectly solid workhorse for stuff like email, webãbrowsing, even watching YouTube videos (beefier-than-stock video card, 1.5GB ofãRAM, and dual 1Ghz G4s can actually pull it off, at least at 480p) is entirelyãdoable. And, good lord, that graphite case is sex-ay.ããI guess that might be the argument AGAINST having such an expandable system, inãthat lots of users would rather beef it up and expand it rather than buy nextãyears' system the minute it comes out, thus depriving Apple of their desiredãprofit.ãã---ã þ Synchronet þ Amiga City - The BBS for the Amiga - more than 2,500+ filesã

Re: Re: Running linux in vm oã By: Derision to Nightfox on Mon Oct 22 2018 09:24 pmãã De> The ability to burn to a blu-ray disc is built-in to macOS. There areã De> external USB burners that work fine out of the box for burning to andã De> reading burned blu-ray discs. Playing a movie on a blu-ray is anotherã De> story. There ARE a few pieces of software... Macgo Blu-ray Player and someã De> other bits, that'll do it, but it usually isn't cheap, and kind of notã De> worth it when you can just download a digital file of the same quality.ããInteresting that Mac OS has the ability to burn to blu-ray built in when Macsãnever included a blu-ray drive (even a reader) as standard. The OS wouldn'tãnecessarily have to have the burning feature built-in, since there can also beãsoftware just for burning to optical discs. Windows has been able to burn toãoptical discs for a long time, but I'm still used to using software such asãNero to burn optical discs.ãã De> I guess that might be the argument AGAINST having such an expandableã De> system, in that lots of users would rather beef it up and expand it ratherã De> than buy next years' system the minute it comes out, thus depriving Appleã De> of their desired profit.ããI dunno.. I can see how Apple would want to sell a whole system, but I thinkãupgradability is also a desired feature. If their computer isn't upgradable,ãI'd be more likely to buy another company's computer instead. So upgradabilityãcan be a selling point. Sometimes you might find you need more RAM or hardãdrive space, or might want to put in a more powerful graphics card, and it canãbe useful to be able to do that. Speaking of that, I'm not sure what graphicsãcards are available for Mac these days, or if you can even replace them..ããNightfoxãã---ã þ Synchronet þ Digital Distortion: digitaldistortionbbs.comã

Re: Re: Running linux in vm oã By: Nightfox to Derision on Tue Oct 23 2018 10:11:56ãã > Interesting that Mac OS has the ability to burn to blu-ray built in whenã > Macs never included a blu-ray drive (even a reader) as standard. The OSã > wouldn't necessarily have to have the burning feature built-in, since thereã > can also be software just for burning to optical discs. Windows has beenã > able to burn to optical discs for a long time, but I'm still used to usingã > software such as Nero to burn optical discs.ããThey definitely included that, which I discovered when I got an externalãblu-ray burner (it was on sale, and cheaper than the DVD versions). And thereãin my burning software was the full whatever giggage that a blu-ray holds. Iãeventually swapped the DVD drive in my MacBook Pro for a blu-ray just for theãburning, though I don't use it enough to really justify it, so it mightãeventually be a second HD in there.ãã > I dunno.. I can see how Apple would want to sell a whole system, but Iã > think upgradability is also a desired feature. If their computer isn'tã > upgradable, I'd be more likely to buy another company's computer instead.ã > So upgradability can be a selling point. Sometimes you might find you needã > more RAM or hard drive space, or might want to put in a more powerfulã > graphics card, and it can be useful to be able to do that. Speaking ofã > that, I'm not sure what graphics cards are available for Mac these days, orã > if you can even replace them..ããBack in the PowerPC Mac days, if you wanted to use a non-Mac-specific videoãcard, you usually needed to flash the ROM or firmware or whatever on it inãorder to make it play nice with the architecture. I did that once or twice.ããSince the switch to Intel, though, Macs are now just like any old PC. I am notãsure about cramming better video cards in the trashcan Mac Pro, just because ofãthe weird shape and maybe the cards need to be low profile or somehow otherwiseãmangled to fit, but the previous generation of towered Mac Pro should be ableãto handle any standard video card, assuming there are drivers for it available.ãã---ã þ Synchronet þ Amiga City - The BBS for the Amiga - more than 2,500+ filesã

Re: Re: Running linux in vm oã By: Derision to Nightfox on Tue Oct 23 2018 05:02 pmãã De> They definitely included that, which I discovered when I got an externalã De> blu-ray burner (it was on sale, and cheaper than the DVD versions). Andã De> there in my burning software was the full whatever giggage that a blu-rayã De> holds. I eventually swapped the DVD drive in my MacBook Pro for a blu-rayã De> just for the burning, though I don't use it enough to really justify it,ã De> so it might eventually be a second HD in there.ããYeah, I bought a laptop several years ago, and I opted to have them put in aã2nd hard drive in place of the optical drive (it was an option with Lenovo)ãsince I don't use optical drives a whole lot in a PC anymore. My desktop has aãblu-ray burner that I put in it when I built it though, and these days I do useãit sometimes for ripping music and movies. I still have a bunch of burnableãDVD-Rs, CD-Rs, and blu-ray writeable discs, and I've thought of using some ofãthem for backups. Sometimes I still feel like a backup on an optical disc isãmore secure than a backup on a hard drive, because files on a hard drive couldãbe deleted accidentally, whereas a backup on an optical disc is permanent.ãã De> Since the switch to Intel, though, Macs are now just like any old PC. I amã De> not sure about cramming better video cards in the trashcan Mac Pro, justã De> because of the weird shape and maybe the cards need to be low profile orã De> somehow otherwise mangled to fit, but the previous generation of toweredã De> Mac Pro should be able to handle any standard video card, assuming thereã De> are drivers for it available. ããYeah, the problem is finding drivers. I'm not sure if hardware makers for Macãmake drivers that you can install like on Windows.ããNightfoxãã---ã þ Synchronet þ Digital Distortion: digitaldistortionbbs.comã

Re: Re: Running linux in vm oã By: Nightfox to Derision on Wed Oct 24 2018 08:37:05ãã > De> Since the switch to Intel, though, Macs are now just like any old PC. Iã > De> am not sure about cramming better video cards in the trashcan Mac Pro,ã > De> just because of the weird shape and maybe the cards need to be lowã > De> profile or somehow otherwise mangled to fit, but the previousã > De> generation of towered Mac Pro should be able to handle any standardã > De> video card, assuming there are drivers for it available.ã >ã > Yeah, the problem is finding drivers. I'm not sure if hardware makers forã > Mac make drivers that you can install like on Windows.ããSurprisingly, macOS includes driver support for a lot of video cards thatãaren't actually sold as standard with Macs. Part of it, I think, is that Appleãwas really pushing the whole expansion-via-Thunderbolt thing, where you couldãhave video cards in an external chassis plugged into any Mac via Thunderbolt,ãso they tossed support for as many as they could in there. Though,ãefficiency-wise, I've found that the Windows drivers are usually waaaay betterãthan the Mac drivers.ãã---ã þ Synchronet þ Amiga City - The BBS for the Amiga - more than 2,500+ filesã

Re: Re: Running linux in vm oã By: Derision to Nightfox on Wed Oct 24 2018 01:33 pmãã De> Surprisingly, macOS includes driver support for a lot of video cards thatã De> aren't actually sold as standard with Macs. Part of it, I think, is thatã De> Apple was really pushing the whole expansion-via-Thunderbolt thing, whereã De> you could have video cards in an external chassis plugged into any Mac viaã De> Thunderbolt, so they tossed support for as many as they could in there.ã De> Though, efficiency-wise, I've found that the Windows drivers are usuallyã De> waaaay better than the Mac drivers.ããInteresting.. IMO the OS shouldn't necessarily include a ton of drivers forãeverything though, because chances are the user won't install most of thatãhardware. Having those drivers on hand would just be wasted space. Often, forãWindows at least, the hardware maker provides drivers for people to downloadãand install when installing one of their pieces of hardware. I know a lot ofãhardware vendors do submit drivers to be included in Windows, but I thinkãthat's mainly for Windows to have a base of commonly included hardware in PCs,ãfor things like hard drive controllers, USB ports, onboard audio, etc.. Iãimagine Mac OS would need a lot fewer drivers included since Apple is the onlyãcompany that builds Macs and doesn't officially allow Mac clones.ããNightfoxãã---ã þ Synchronet þ Digital Distortion: digitaldistortionbbs.comã

Re: Re: Running linux in vm on liã By: Nightfox to Android8675 on Thu Oct 25 2018 17:08:42ãã > I've heard Microsoft has been working on a version of Win10 that runs on ARMã > but I don't know of any such devices on the market yet. I thought it was stã > in development, and that PC makers were still working on ARM-based Windowsã > devices.ããThat wasn't the impression that I got years ago. I thought with Windows 8, theyãdid come up with an ARM version of Windows, and it was called "Windows 8 RT",ãand was not well received by the consumers and Microsoft scraped the ideaãpretty quickly when Windows 8.1 was released (or at least pulled it off theãmarket pretty quickly).ããWho knows...ããã-jagãCode it, Script it, Automate it!ãã---ã þ Synchronet þ MtlGeek - Geeks in Montreal - http://mtlgeek.com/ -ã

Re: Microsoft Win10 ARMã By: Jagossel to Nightfox on Fri Oct 26 2018 08:39 amãã >> I've heard Microsoft has been working on a version of Win10 that runsã >> on ARM but I don't know of any such devices on the market yet. Iã >> thought it was st in development, and that PC makers were stillã >> working on ARM-based Windows devices.ãã Ja> That wasn't the impression that I got years ago. I thought with Windows 8,ã Ja> they did come up with an ARM version of Windows, and it was calledã Ja> "Windows 8 RT", and was not well received by the consumers and Microsoftã Ja> scraped the idea pretty quickly when Windows 8.1 was released (or at leastã Ja> pulled it off the market pretty quickly).ããWindows 8 RT was a separate thing. It did run on ARM, but the problem was thatãit only ran the new-style Windows "Metro" apps, which people didn't findãuseful. I think people also found it confusing, since it was a version ofãWindows that didn't run any of the regular Windows desktop software. So itãdidn't sell well and it was pulled off the market. Microsoft is trying againãwith this ARM verson of Windows 10 though. This new ARM Windows 10 has theãdesktop interface and will run desktop Windows software, and even includes anãx86 emulator for compatibility so it can run 32-bit Intel software on ARM.ããNightfoxãã---ã þ Synchronet þ Digital Distortion: digitaldistortionbbs.comã

Re: Microsoft Win10 ARMã By: Nightfox to Jagossel on Fri Oct 26 2018 09:56 amããHere are a couple of pages on this:ãhttps://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/armãhttps://www.windowscentral.com/windows-10-arm-here-stay-whether-you-it-or-notããNightfoxãã---ã þ Synchronet þ Digital Distortion: digitaldistortionbbs.comã

On 10-26-18 08:39, Jagossel wrote to Nightfox <=-ãã Ja> That wasn't the impression that I got years ago. I thought with Windowsã Ja> 8, they did come up with an ARM version of Windows, and it was calledã Ja> "Windows 8 RT", and was not well received by the consumers andã Ja> Microsoft scraped the idea pretty quickly when Windows 8.1 was releasedã Ja> (or at least pulled it off the market pretty quickly).ããI think when people see "Windows", they expect to be able to do everything onãit that they can on their (Windows) desktop or laptop, while Windows RT, fromãwhat I understand was an experience that was more like using a tablet - limitedãapp selection, etc.ããã... You say money can't make me happy? Prove it to me.ã--- MultiMail/Linux v0.51ã þ Synchronet þ Freeway BBS, Bendigo Australia. freeway.apana.org.auã

On 10-26-18 09:56, Nightfox wrote to Jagossel <=-ãã Ni> though. This new ARM Windows 10 has the desktop interface and will runã Ni> desktop Windows software, and even includes an x86 emulator forã Ni> compatibility so it can run 32-bit Intel software on ARM.ããThat may have better luck, depending on how good the emulation is in terms ofãboth speed and accuracy. Time will tell. But will they get it out in time,ãbefore all the popular Windows software goes 64 bit?ããã... Isn't "Half Duplex" just an apartment?ã--- MultiMail/Linux v0.51ã þ Synchronet þ Freeway BBS, Bendigo Australia. freeway.apana.org.auã

That may have better luck, depending on how good the emulation is inã Vk> terms of both speed and accuracy. Time will tell. But will they getã Vk> it out in time, before all the popular Windows software goes 64 bit?ããWhat exactly is the advantage of having ARM processors? Is it just battery ãlife? As I understand, obtaining additional speed out of a CPU is problematicãdue to the physics limitations of current CPU hardware. Therefore, it's ãunlikely that any CPU would outperform an Intel in the immediate future.ããã... A bachelor is a hunter that never Mrs.ã--- MultiMail/Win v0.51ã þ Synchronet þ Frugal Computing BBS - frugalbbs.comã

Re: Re: Microsoft Win10 ARMã By: Vk3jed to Nightfox on Sat Oct 27 2018 11:30 amãã Ni>> though. This new ARM Windows 10 has the desktop interface and willã Ni>> run desktop Windows software, and even includes an x86 emulator forã Ni>> compatibility so it can run 32-bit Intel software on ARM.ãã Vk> That may have better luck, depending on how good the emulation is in termsã Vk> of both speed and accuracy. Time will tell. But will they get it out inã Vk> time, before all the popular Windows software goes 64 bit?ããI'm wondering if a lot of Windows software will still have a 32-bit option forãa while, since 64-bit Intel/AMD processors can run 32-bit software without muchã(if any) performance impact.ããNightfoxãã---ã þ Synchronet þ Digital Distortion: digitaldistortionbbs.comã

Re: Re: Microsoft Win10 ARMã By: Chai to Vk3jed on Sat Oct 27 2018 05:14 pmãã Ch> What exactly is the advantage of having ARM processors? Is it just batteryã Ch> life? As I understand, obtaining additional speed out of a CPU isã Ch> problematic due to the physics limitations of current CPU hardware.ã Ch> Therefore, it's unlikely that any CPU would outperform an Intel in theã Ch> immediate future. ããI believe battery life is a main advantage, and perhaps performance per watt. ãIntel's processors with their 10 nanometer manufacturing technology has beenãsignificantly delayed, and I think some companies are worried that Intel isãstagnating.ããNightfoxãã---ã þ Synchronet þ Digital Distortion: digitaldistortionbbs.comã

On 10-29-18 09:48, Nightfox wrote to Vk3jed <=-ãã Vk> That may have better luck, depending on how good the emulation is in termsã Vk> of both speed and accuracy. Time will tell. But will they get it out inã Vk> time, before all the popular Windows software goes 64 bit?ãã Ni> I'm wondering if a lot of Windows software will still have a 32-bitã Ni> option for a while, since 64-bit Intel/AMD processors can run 32-bitã Ni> software without much (if any) performance impact.ããHard to tell. The tipping point will be when memory requirements start toãexceed a few GB for a single instance, then 64 bit will become highlyãadvantageous, same if we see a lot of common software manipulating lots of hugeãnumbers or data structures.ããã... COFFEE.EXE Missing - Insert Cup, & Press A Key To Resume.ã--- MultiMail/Linux v0.51ã þ Synchronet þ Freeway BBS, Bendigo Australia. freeway.apana.org.auã